Kansas Abortion Vote

[NorrinRadd]

The pro-abortion crowd, who used to claim they wanted abortion to be "Safe, Rare and Legal" has made it clear that they have totally abandoned the first two parts of that slogan.

You've had Planned Parenthood literally giving out awards to centers that increase the number of abortions they perform and grouse when the numbers decrease.

And they have made getting an abortion something to celebrate

I could cite numerous other examples.

As a minor nitpick, I always heard the slogan as "Safe, Legal, and Rare," where the last term was intended to kind of "take the edge off" the first two.

[Starlight]

The pro-abortion crowd, who used to claim they wanted abortion to be "Safe, Rare and Legal" has made it clear that they have totally abandoned the first two parts of that slogan.

Um, are you actually claiming that abortion-rights people want abortions to be unsafe?

As for rare, of course I would still want them to be rare. Abortions are a highly inefficient method of birth control. The use of contraceptives should be encouraged among those wanting to not have children. I would tend to view the number of abortions (minus those done for medical necessity) as largely an indication of society's level of incompetence / lack of education at using birth control.

[rogue06]

Why not try it for yourself?

?Spartacus?

That really collapsed on you didn't it?

You kept denying that modern historians and translators would ever add any clarifications into their translations like we saw them do with Florius where some added the word "Roman" to clarify what type of soldier Spartacus had previously been, but now we have them doing exactly that with Caesar's The Gallic Wars, where they added "copper coins" or "sesterces" to his simple mention of "200,000" for clarification.

Must suck being you

[rogue06]

Um, are you actually claiming that abortion-rights people want abortions to be unsafe?

As for rare, of course I would still want them to be rare. Abortions are a highly inefficient method of birth control. The use of contraceptives should be encouraged among those wanting to not have children. I would tend to view the number of abortions (minus those done for medical necessity) as largely an indication of society's level of incompetence / lack of education at using birth control.

As the Gosnell incident and several others demonstrated, many abortion activists simply don't care or maybe it is better to say, it is a distant second when it comes to making sure that abortion is accessible. They had a tendency to resist health inspections because if they failed then someone might not get an abortion and that's what was important. Health concerns and safety? Not so much.

I've already commented on the "making them rare" aspect of the "safe, rare and legal" mantra voiced by abortion advocates so let's look at the other two parts.

---

Even though abortion has been legal for 45 years a number of abortion centers have conditions strikingly similar the worst of the horror stories circulated about "back-alley" abortions. Today in the era when making abortions legal was also supposed to make them safe the facilities, like the ones in New York City, are inspected less than tanning salons and "Illinois abortion clinics hadn't been inspected for up to 15 years before the Gosnell case broke, an Associated Press investigation found."^[1]

Due to the exposing of abortionist Kermit Gosnells House of Horrors, which contained filthy equipment, jars of baby body parts, a freezer full of aborted children, blood-stained blankets, and "a flea-infested cat ... wandering through the facility"^[2] the public has become more concerned about the conditions in these places. Similar things were taking place at centers runs by Nareshkumar "Naresh" Patel, Brian Finkel, Robert Rho, James Pendergraft IV and others. Abortion centers are being investigated for botched abortions or hazardous facilities in Alabama, New Mexico, Minnesota, Maryland, Colorado and Florida. There may be more, since abortion record-keeping is abysmal.

According to the Philadelphia Inquirer

Source: Problems with N.J. late-term abortion business similar to Pa.'s

For five months last year, New Jersey regulators received complaints that abortion doctor Steven Brigham, 54, was running a secret, cash-only, late-term abortion business using a risky interstate scheme - one for which he was disciplined in the 1990s.

Just as in the Gosnell case, regulators took no public action against Brigham - until a police raid forced them to.

...

None of Brigham's six New Jersey clinics is licensed to do surgery, so, rather than lose business, he evaded the rules, prosecutors say. He initiated late-term abortions in Voorhees; the next day, he led car caravans of patients, in labor, to Elkton, Md., for surgery.

...

Elizabeth Barnes, director of Cherry Hill Women's Center, a South Jersey abortion clinic, said she wrote to New Jersey's medical licensing board in June 2009 detailing her suspicions that Brigham was starting third-trimester abortions in Voorhees and finishing them in a clandestine clinic, probably in Maryland.

In response, Barnes said, an investigator talked to her, off and on, for months. Yet no official action was taken against Brigham.

Barnes' suspicions should have rung bells. In the 1990s, Brigham did late-term abortions that straddled Voorhees and New York City.

In 1994, New York authorities took his license in that state for botching two abortions, one begun in Voorhees. They called him "undertrained," with "submarginal abilities" and "not the slightest recognition of his deficiencies." New Jersey prosecuted Brigham for those same cases, plus four more. But Brigham's appeals ultimately reached an administrative judge who found him "sincere" and "credible," and reinstated his license.

...

On Aug. 17, police raided the Elkton clinic - a storefront operation with no sign, that had opened about a year earlier - but could not find her medical records. They did, however, find 35 late-term fetal bodies and parts, none with records.

...

Although Elkton is closed, three American Women's Services clinics are open in Maryland. So are six in New Jersey, two in Virginia (where he has never had a license), and two in Pennsylvania.



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An investigation into New Jersey abortion center injuries revealed that they are not being inspected, as the law required. The state has four centers that perform late-term abortions and 3 of the 4 had gone 5 years or even longer without a state health inspection.

Here in Georgia Channel 2 WSB (owned by the same company that runs the proudly liberal Atlanta Journal-Constitution newspaper) Lori Geary, who recently stepped down as a political reporter and was also an anchor at CNN's Headline News, conducted an investigation finding that inspections of all five abortion centers in the state found numerous health violations including "Unsterilized instruments, dirty linens and expired medications"

Source: Records: Georgia's abortion clinics face numerous inspection violations

Geary got the inspection records for all five clinics three weeks after filing the open records request. Some of them were pages long, listing numerous violations. Those violations were for items like expired medications and medical instruments, including speculums. Others listed unsterilized equipment, sterilized and non-sterile supplies stored in the same room with a traffic cone, the vent in a biohazard room taped off with cardboard, soiled linens in surgical rooms and stirrups wrapped in duct tape. One violation was for iodine swabs to prevent wound infections that had expired 10 years ago.

"If I was a patient at that clinic I would be horrified to know that maybe the tools they were using were not clean," said Galloway.

Planned Parenthood runs only one of the five surgical clinics. It's located in Augusta and had 23 violations in 2011, and paid a $1,400 fine.

In a very candid interview, the organization's CEO told Geary there was a change in leadership at the clinic, and a corrective action plan was submitted. Still, state records show, inspectors didn't visit the clinic until two years later, in March 2013.



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And Planned Parenthood actually sued the state of Indiana trying to block a law that required yearly inspections. The law also required they keep and turn over information to the Department of Health detailing "abortion complications" that arose. PP complained both requirements "impose unique and burdensome obligations" on them.

Pro-abortion activists maintain such oversight of abortion centers is "medically unnecessary" and "politically motivated" but even after Gosnell inspectors continued to find serious problems in other facilities in that state. For example, a recent unannounced state inspection of the Hillcrest Women's Medical Center (HWMC) abortion facility in Harrisburg "determined that the facility was not in compliance with the requirements of the Pennsylvania Department of Health's Rules and Regulations for Ambulatory Care Facilities" and among other things

Observation of the facility on August 12, 2016, revealed the facility was very warm and did not have operating air conditioning. According to Accuweather, the actual high temperature on August 12, 2016, was 96 degrees Fahrenheit. The facility did not have a thermometer inside and could not provide the room air temperature.

An interview conducted on Auust 12, 2016, at 10:00 AM with EMP1 confirmed the facility did not report the loss of air conditioning, as an infrastructure failure. EMP1 further revealed that the air conditioning broke around June 17-20, 2016. EMP1 confirmed that a service technician was onsite on June 23, 2016, and July 28, 2016. The air conditioner had not been fixed as of August 12, 2016. EMP1 further stated that "I guess I should have reported it."

So much for making abortions legal will make them safe. But will reversing Roe be detrimental to women as some have asserted?

For decades, supporters of abortion on demand have insisted that if Roe were overturned women would be forced into "back alley" abortions which would lead to massive increase in maternal mortality.

First the whole spiel about illegal abortions resulted in thousands of deaths each year was exposed as nothing but a lie. A deliberate lie. The pro-abortion side deliberately fabricated statistics concerning illegal abortions in order to garner support.

Bernard Nathanson, co-founder in 1969 of the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws (NARAL) and one time director of New York City's Center for Reproductive and Sexual Health (who later found God and became a very vocal Pro-Life supporter) exposed how the pro-abortion movement deliberately fabricated statistics concerning the number of deaths linked to illegal abortions in order to garner support for legalizing abortion. He confessed that he and his fellow travelers constantly fed the media the lie that 10,000 women a year died as a result of botched illegal abortion when in fact it was but a tiny fraction of that (in 1972, the year prior to Roe v. Wade, 28 deaths were reported from illegal abortions). The MSM dutifully and uncritically regurgitated these numbers.

Now that is out of the way let's look at the facts.

So let's turn to Chile. Why Chile you ask? While most countries in recent years have lessened legal restrictions on abortion, in contrast Chile took the opposite approach. In that country prior to 1989 abortion was largely legal, but in 1989, Chile banned all "therapeutic" abortions, thus providing us with an actual example of what can be expected when abortion is made illegal.

A groundbreaking study of abortion in Chile published in 2012 is the first in-depth analysis of a large time series, year by year, of maternal deaths and their determinants and was led by Dr. Elard Koch^[3]. The researchers found that outlawing abortion is not associated with maternal mortality and moreover it not only saved children but advanced women's health. That's right. Restrictive abortion laws were good for womens health. At a time when access to legal abortion is often deemed as absolutely necessary for women's health, this shatters that assumption.

Koch and his colleagues discovered that similar to restrictions on alcohol or tobacco, restrictive abortion laws acted to dissuade. Further, they concluded that even with these restrictions, Chile has one of the lowest abortion-related maternal mortality rates in the world.

As Koch explained in an interview:

Source: A ground-breaking abortion study from Chile

These data suggest that over time, restrictive laws may have a restraining effect on the practice of abortion and promote its decrease. In fact, Chile exhibits today one of the lowest abortion-related maternal deaths in the world, with a 92.3% decrease since 1989 and a 99.1% accumulated decrease over 50 years.

Second, from the perspective of human life, especially if a developing country is looking to simultaneously protect the life of the mother and the unborn child, a plausible hypothesis after the Chilean study is that abortion restriction may be effective when is combined with adequately-implemented public policies to increase educational levels of women and to improve access to maternal health facilities. A restrictive law may discourage practice, which is suggested by the decrease of hospitalizations due to clandestine abortions estimated in Chile.



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So while pro-abortion proponents repeatedly insist that abortion regulations or bans would result in a back-alley abortion surge and giving rise to an increase in deaths and serious injuries of women, the facts simply put indicate that this is not the case.

Finally, one should bear in mind that if Roe were to be overturned it is highly doubtful that this would suddenly lead to abortions being outlawed nationwide. It would almost certainly throw it back to the states to decide on a state-by-state basis. It is inconceivable that states like California or New York would choose to make them illegal. The same could be said about other "blue" states (including those that voted for Trump in 2016) and likely for a number of "red" ones as well.

And even in states that do opt to make them illegal, it would likely be like how it was in Ireland before they legalized abortion two months ago, where those wanting one simply took a day trip over to Great Britain in order to get one. The same with Poland which still has tight restrictions on abortion. As the Guardian noted matter-of-factly, "Polish women seeking abortions typically go to Germany or other neighbouring countries or order abortion pills online."








1. Illinois Abortion Clinics Inspected an Average of Once Every 9 Years with 40% of licensed centers going between 14 and 17 years without inspections. Moreover, the state health department doesn't regulate Planned Parenthood but rather under Illinois law, they are regulated by the Illinois Department of Professional and Financial Regulation

2. And, according to the Grand Jury report investigating him

..this business was a filthy fraud in which he overdosed his patients with dangerous drugs, spread venereal disease among them with infected instruments, perforated their wombs and bowels -- and, on at least two occasions, caused their deaths. Over the years, many people came to know that something was going on here.

But no one put a stop to it.

In cases where the baby was born alive after Gosnell tried to abort it he stuck scissors into the back of their necks to cut their spinal cords (which he called "ensuring fetal demise)," and at least once making a joke of it.

In the end Gosnell was convicted of first degree murder in the deaths of 3 of infants and involuntary manslaughter in the death of Karnamaya Mongar, a patient. He was also convicted of 21 felony counts of illegal late-term abortion, and 211 counts of violating the 24-hour informed consent law.

3. An epidemiologist with the Department of Family Medicine, Faculty of Medicine at the University of Chile in Santiago as well as the Institute of Molecular Epidemiology (MELISA) and Center of Embryonic Medicine and Maternal Health, Faculty of Medicine, Universidad Católica de la Santísima Concepción, Concepción, Chile

[rogue06]

As a minor nitpick, I always heard the slogan as "Safe, Legal, and Rare," where the last term was intended to kind of "take the edge off" the first two.

Bill Clinton is on record saying "safe, rare and legal."

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

That really collapsed on you didn't it?

You kept denying that modern historians and translators would ever add any clarifications into their translations like we saw them do with Florius where some added the word "Roman" to clarify what type of soldier Spartacus had previously been, but now we have them doing exactly that with Caesar's The Gallic Wars, where they added "copper coins" or "sesterces" to his simple mention of "200,000" for clarification.

Must suck being you

No it collapsed on you.

You could provide not one iota of attested historical evidence to support your ludicrous fantasy.

[Sparko]

Um, are you actually claiming that abortion-rights people want abortions to be unsafe?

As for rare, of course I would still want them to be rare. Abortions are a highly inefficient method of birth control. The use of contraceptives should be encouraged among those wanting to not have children. I would tend to view the number of abortions (minus those done for medical necessity) as largely an indication of society's level of incompetence / lack of education at using birth control.

Not safe at all for the fetus is it?

[rogue06]

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It isn't like anyone should ever expect an honest accounting from you.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

It isn't like anyone should ever expect an honest accounting from you.

My reply was completely accurate and honest. You could not provide an iota of attested historical evidence to support your deluded flights of fancy.

That you felt it necessary to resort to your usual "inner ten year old" behaviour with a range of images, demonstrates that fact.

[Bill the Cat]

Um, are you actually claiming that abortion-rights people want abortions to be unsafe?

Yes. They want the ability to kill another member of our species. That's not safe for the unborn at all.

[rogue06]

My reply was completely accurate and honest. You could not provide an iota of attested historical evidence to support your deluded flights of fancy.

That you felt it necessary to resort to your usual "inner ten year old" behaviour with a range of images, demonstrates that fact.

Everything you claimed wasn't done, was in fact done, but as is your habit Frau Volume you will continue to pretend otherwise.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Everything you claimed wasn't done, was in fact done, but as is your habit Frau Volume you will continue to pretend otherwise.

More delusions. Now I think we should both desist before the thread starter gets cross.