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Kansas Abortion Vote

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

    I’ve never actually met an abortion proponent. I’m imagining what that would look like.
    .
    Hey Susie, I’m bored, how about we get knocked up and have abortions, that’ll be fun!

    Nah, can’t see that happening.

    On the other side, I’ve seen the phrase “forced birth proponent” popping up more often. Because talking past each other has worked so well already.
    To quote Edmond Dantes... Perhaps you should get out more...
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

      I’ve never actually met an abortion proponent. I’m imagining what that would look like.
      .
      Hey Susie, I’m bored, how about we get knocked up and have abortions, that’ll be fun!

      Nah, can’t see that happening.

      On the other side, I’ve seen the phrase “forced birth proponent” popping up more often. Because talking past each other has worked so well already.
      Look up groups like Shout Your Abortion (I can't like to their site because of the fbomb). And then there are people that go around celebrating abortion you can find photos all over the web like this:

      ?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmediadc-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fa5%2F02%2Fad14eded4ae0b6a7a10e6bd1b01c%2Fscreen-shot-2020-02-11-at-12.57.27%20PM.png


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      • #48
        Originally posted by EvoUK View Post

        I'm surprised you didn't add in 'innocent' for the full emotive language bingo.

        Obviously I know your anti-abortion arguments back to front as I've shown previously (opposed to you who were unable to do the same for pro-choice arguments, despite literally years of experience on here), but even so I don't see a reason to let purposefully clouding emotive language pass unmentioned.
        That an innocent human life is created at the moment iof conception is not "emotive language", it is a plain fact. That you apparently have an emotional reaction to this is curious, don't you think? You might want to figure out why.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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        • #49
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          What he objects to is saying that he "wants" to commit infanticide when his position is that he merely supports infanticide as an option for several weeks or months after the baby is born.
          Indeed, that would be like saying that if someone thinks divorce should be legal, that they must want everyone to get divorces and get joy out of hearing of divorces happening. Obviously thinking something should be legal and wanting to see it happen are two completely different things. Unfortunately posters in this forum have done a poor job distinguishing the two in the past.

          Another thing I object to, which I occasionally see happening in this forum, is the mis-citation of my personal viewpoint to justify false claims being made about liberals in America who support abortion rights. It seems that anti-abortionists are often happy to play fast and loose with the truth with regard to mischaracterizing their opponents and their motivations, including grouping them all together as if "they" all had a single viewpoint. Just because I have a viewpoint does not imply anyone in America has that same viewpoint, and does certainly not imply it is a common viewpoint among liberals or democrats in America. I have no reason to think that any significant number of US abortion rights advocates are wanting to legalize abortion any later than the 1st or 2nd trimesters.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
            Yes, he is. I've debated him on this a number of times. He seriously has zero problems killing a born baby under 3 months or so old. None. This isn't rogue exaggerating his positions. He's quite proud of it too.
            Please stop implying that I would ever be personally involved in such a thing.

            Perhaps you mean I would be okay with current abortion laws extending a short time after birth: i.e. a law allowing parents to discuss with doctors for a short time after birth to decide if they want to keep the child. Yes. Obviously I wouldn't be involved in that though.

            The major motivation for this would be that there are some serious medical conditions that can go undiagnosed during fetal development and are not apparent until after birth. Obviously, if someone has the option of an earlier abortion, no one who wants an abortion is going to go through all the suffering of pregnancy and labor and carrying a child to term and then get an abortion - obviously some major new piece of information has to come to light for anyone to suddenly want an abortion late in the piece.

            For what it's worth, I had a friend last month say to me out of the blue that they had been reading their old diaries, and asked if I still held this view which they had recorded in it a decade or more ago. When I said yes, they said that they now, as a parent, had come to agree with this view, as they acknowledged that there might be serious medical issues discovered after birth that would motivate an abortion.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              What he objects to is saying that he "wants" to commit infanticide when his position is that he merely supports infanticide as an option for several weeks or months after the baby is born.
              Indeed, that would be like saying that if someone thinks divorce should be legal, that they must want everyone to get divorces and get joy out of hearing of divorces happening. Obviously thinking something should be legal and wanting to see it happen are two completely different things. Unfortunately posters in this forum have done a poor job distinguishing the two in the past.
              And there you have it Juvenal . Looks to be you who needs to do some retracting.
              "When you're attacking FBI agents because you're under criminal investigation, you're losing"
              -Trump Press Secretary, Sarah Huckabee Sanders


              "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
              - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                Please stop implying that I would ever be personally involved in such a thing.

                Perhaps you mean I would be okay with current abortion laws extending a short time after birth: i.e. a law allowing parents to discuss with doctors for a short time after birth to decide if they want to keep the child. Yes. Obviously I wouldn't be involved in that though.
                I didn't imply anything, hun. Please stop reading things that aren't there.

                But in any case, maybe this will frighten off Juvenal from white-knighting you, though sadly I'm unsure if it will.
                "When you're attacking FBI agents because you're under criminal investigation, you're losing"
                -Trump Press Secretary, Sarah Huckabee Sanders


                "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
                - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                  I’ve never actually met an abortion proponent. I’m imagining what that would look like.
                  .
                  Hey Susie, I’m bored, how about we get knocked up and have abortions, that’ll be fun!

                  Nah, can’t see that happening.
                  Exactly! It's bizarre how often this sort of confusion seems to come up in the minds of conservatives here.

                  As I said above, it's like confusing people who say "I'm okay with divorce being legal" with people who say "More divorces are occurring! YAY! Let's have a party to celebrate all the divorces occurring out there that we love to see happening!! And let's get married just so we can achieve the goal of getting a divorce, because we love divorce so much!". Them apparently not be able to distinguish the first view from the second on the subject of abortion comes across as really bizarre.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    That an innocent human life is created at the moment iof conception is not "emotive language", it is a plain fact.
                    Do you deny original sin and believe humans are born innocent and not guilty?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                      So, if I take a newborn baby from his mother, and brutally murder him, in your opinion that is about the moral equivalent of destruction of property. It's about the same as breaking a window or keying a car?
                      Destruction of property can amount to things like burning down your home, not just keying a car. Different destruction of property crimes can have a huge range of victim impacts from mildly inconvenient to absolutely devastating, and can have a huge range of fixable-ness from well-insured and easily-replaced through to irreplaceable and uninsurable.

                      The average person would probably rate the death of their newborn as being worse emotionally for them than the burning down of their home, and unlike the latter it isn't insurable nor necessarily replaceable. So if it were to be considered a destruction of property crime, then the psychological damage done of the parents has to be considered to be above what any current destruction of property crimes achieve, and legally the punishment should obviously be given accordingly.

                      I do agree that the primary moral harm done is toward the parents. In that sense it is similar to destruction of property crimes.

                      I know you're not religious, but I note that the Bible classifies this sort of thing as destruction of property with a punishment of financial compensation:
                      Exodus 21:22-25 “When there’s a fight and in the fight a pregnant woman is hit so that she miscarries but is not otherwise hurt, the one responsible has to pay whatever the husband demands in compensation."

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
                        Do you deny original sin and believe humans are born innocent and not guilty?
                        You apparently don't know what the doctrine of original sin actually is.

                        Henri Blocher, in Original Sin: Illuminating the Riddle, draws upon the findings of Malina that Romans 5 is in a rabbinic style and uses legal terminology [76ff]. From this he concludes that Paul's meaning is that what Adam did was "make possible the imputation, the judicial treatment, of human sins." [emphasis added]

                        Note how this fits in with what Paul goes on to say:
                        For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

                        In other words, Adam's sin, and the resultant punishment of spiritual and eventually physical death, was a pattern-connection that was established and set the legal precedent for death to be inflicted as the penalty for all sins.

                        https://www.tektonics.org/lp/origsin.php
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          You apparently don't know what the doctrine of original sin actually is.


                          Do you believe that aborted fetuses go to heaven on the basis of their own merits, due to their own innocence and on the basis of their own works, outside of the work of Christ?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
                            Do you believe that aborted fetuses go to heaven on the basis of their own merits, due to their own innocence and on the basis of their own works, outside of the work of Christ?
                            The doctrine of original sin simply establishes a precedent for the punishment of sin. If there is no sin, then there is no punishment.

                            Tell me, what sin could an unborn child possibly be guilty of?
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by EvoUK View Post

                              I'm surprised you didn't add in 'innocent' for the full emotive language bingo.

                              Obviously I know your anti-abortion arguments back to front as I've shown previously (opposed to you who were unable to do the same for pro-choice arguments, despite literally years of experience on here), but even so I don't see a reason to let purposefully clouding emotive language pass unmentioned.
                              Then you know that we do not add "innocent" primarily for emotional impact. Many of us believe that execution *can* be appropriate in some cases, notably after due process of law as a consequence of "guilt" in a capital case.
                              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                              Beige Federalist.

                              Nationalist Christian.

                              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                              Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                              Justice for Matthew Perna!

                              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                                The doctrine of original sin simply establishes a precedent for the punishment of sin. If there is no sin, then there is no punishment.

                                Tell me, what sin could an unborn child possibly be guilty of?
                                I believe most versions of "original sin" (NOT the one I hold to) include the notion of inherited guilt.
                                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                                Beige Federalist.

                                Nationalist Christian.

                                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                                Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                                Comment

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