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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    I remember playing da Orks some 30 years ago in a paper and pencil campaign smiley old.gif
    Until a friend told me about the video game Space Marine I had never heard of the franchise. They are supposed to finally make a sequel, I hope it has a co-op campaign.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      You'll find reference to him in Suetonius' The Twelve Caesars, Valerius Maximus' Memorable deeds and sayings, Julius Caesar's The Civil Wars, and maybe Plutarch as well.


      Wiki has a brief, but unsourced, entry:

      Cassius Scaevus was a centurion of Caesar's 8th legion. Scaevus fought in his battle of Dyrrachium in his fort, and when his cohorts senior centurions were injured, he took command. He fought back and drove the attacking Pompeian cohort's back to the city, despite being, in the words of Suetonius, "blinded in one eye, wounded in thigh and shoulder, and with no fewer than 120 holes in his shield." When Caesar arrived, he awarded Scaevus Primus Pilus status, was given triple his pay in denarii and was recorded to have over 200 Pompeian arrows in his scutum. Caesar was so impressed, he promoted Scaevus to his Legio X Fretensis and continued to serve after the death of the tenth's Primus Pilius, Gaius Crastinus, at Pharsalus.
      He is mentioned in Civil Wars, Book III.53.

      Ita uno die VI proeliis factis, tribus ad Dyrrachium, tribus ad munitiones, cum horum omnium ratio haberetur, ad duo milia numero ex Pompeianis cecidisse reperiebamus, evocatos centurionesque complures (in eo fuit numero Valerius Flaccus L. filius eius, qui praetor Asiam obtinuerat); signaque sunt militaria sex relata. Nostri non amplius XX omnibus sunt proeliis desiderati. Sed in castello nemo fuit omnino militum, quin vulneraretur, quattuorque ex una cohorte centuriones oculos amiserunt. Et cum laboris sui periculique testimonium afferre vellent, milia sagittarum circiter XXX in castellum coniecta Caesari renumeraverunt, scutoque ad eum relato Scaevae centurionis inventa sunt in eo foramina CXX. Quem Caesar, ut erat de se meritus et de re publica, donatum milibus CC collaudatumque ab octavis ordinibus ad primipilum se traducere pronuntiavit (eius enim opera castellum magna ex parte conservatum esse constabat) cohortemque postea duplici stipendio, frumento, veste, cibariis militaribusque donis amplissime donavit.
      Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 08-06-2022, 08:34 AM.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        He is mentioned in Civil Wars, Book III.53.

        Ita uno die VI proeliis factis, tribus ad Dyrrachium, tribus ad munitiones, cum horum omnium ratio haberetur, ad duo milia numero ex Pompeianis cecidisse reperiebamus, evocatos centurionesque complures (in eo fuit numero Valerius Flaccus L. filius eius, qui praetor Asiam obtinuerat); signaque sunt militaria sex relata. Nostri non amplius XX omnibus sunt proeliis desiderati. Sed in castello nemo fuit omnino militum, quin vulneraretur, quattuorque ex una cohorte centuriones oculos amiserunt. Et cum laboris sui periculique testimonium afferre vellent, milia sagittarum circiter XXX in castellum coniecta Caesari renumeraverunt, scutoque ad eum relato Scaevae centurionis inventa sunt in eo foramina CXX. Quem Caesar, ut erat de se meritus et de re publica, donatum milibus CC collaudatumque ab octavis ordinibus ad primipilum se traducere pronuntiavit (eius enim opera castellum magna ex parte conservatum esse constabat) cohortemque postea duplici stipendio, frumento, veste, cibariis militaribusque donis amplissime donavit.
        The hyperlink that I provided already furnished this if you clicked on it:

        Thus six engagements having happened in one day, three at Dyrrachium, and three at the fortifications, when a computation was made of the number of slain, we found that about two thousand fell on Pompey's side, several of them volunteer veterans and centurions. Among them was Valerius, the son of Lucius Flaccus, who as praetor had formerly had the government of Asia, and six military standards were taken. Of our men, not more than twenty were missing in all the action. But in the fort, not a single soldier escaped without a wound; and in one cohort, four centurions lost their eyes. And being desirous to produce testimony of the fatigue they under went, and the danger they sustained, they counted to Caesar about thirty thousand arrows which had been thrown into the fort; and in the shield of the centurion Scaeva, which was brought to him, were found two hundred and thirty holes. In reward for this man's services, both to himself and the public, Caesar presented to him two hundred thousand pieces of copper money, and declared him promoted from the eighth to the first centurion. For it appeared that the fort had been in a great measure saved by his exertions; and he afterward very amply rewarded the cohorts with double pay, corn, clothing, and other military honors.
        Ita uno die VI proeliis factis, tribus ad Dyrrachium, tribus ad munitiones, cum horum omnium ratio haberetur, ad duorum milium numero ex Pompeianis cecidisse reperiebamus, evocatos centurionesque complures (in eo fuit numero Valerius Flaccus, L. filius, eius, qui praetor Asiam obtinuerat); signaque sunt militaria sex relata. Nostri non amplius XX omnibus sunt proeliis desiderati. Sed in castello nemo fuit omnino militum, quin vulneraretur, quattuorque ex una cohorte centuriones oculos amiserunt. Et cum laboris sui periculique testimonium afferre vellent, milia sagittarum circiter XXX in castellum coniecta Caesari renumeraverunt, scutoque ad eum relato Scaevae centurionis inventa sunt in eo foramina CXX. Quem Caesar, ut erat de se meritus et de re publica, donatum milibus CC collaudatumque ab octavis ordinibus ad primipilum se traducere pronuntiavit (eius enim opera castellum magna ex parte conservatum esse constabat) cohortemque postea duplici stipendio, frumento, veste, cibariis militaribusque donis amplissime donavit.



        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          The hyperlink that I provided already furnished this if you clicked on it:

          Thus six engagements having happened in one day, three at Dyrrachium, and three at the fortifications, when a computation was made of the number of slain, we found that about two thousand fell on Pompey's side, several of them volunteer veterans and centurions. Among them was Valerius, the son of Lucius Flaccus, who as praetor had formerly had the government of Asia, and six military standards were taken. Of our men, not more than twenty were missing in all the action. But in the fort, not a single soldier escaped without a wound; and in one cohort, four centurions lost their eyes. And being desirous to produce testimony of the fatigue they under went, and the danger they sustained, they counted to Caesar about thirty thousand arrows which had been thrown into the fort; and in the shield of the centurion Scaeva, which was brought to him, were found two hundred and thirty holes. In reward for this man's services, both to himself and the public, Caesar presented to him two hundred thousand pieces of copper money, and declared him promoted from the eighth to the first centurion. For it appeared that the fort had been in a great measure saved by his exertions; and he afterward very amply rewarded the cohorts with double pay, corn, clothing, and other military honors.
          Ita uno die VI proeliis factis, tribus ad Dyrrachium, tribus ad munitiones, cum horum omnium ratio haberetur, ad duorum milium numero ex Pompeianis cecidisse reperiebamus, evocatos centurionesque complures (in eo fuit numero Valerius Flaccus, L. filius, eius, qui praetor Asiam obtinuerat); signaque sunt militaria sex relata. Nostri non amplius XX omnibus sunt proeliis desiderati. Sed in castello nemo fuit omnino militum, quin vulneraretur, quattuorque ex una cohorte centuriones oculos amiserunt. Et cum laboris sui periculique testimonium afferre vellent, milia sagittarum circiter XXX in castellum coniecta Caesari renumeraverunt, scutoque ad eum relato Scaevae centurionis inventa sunt in eo foramina CXX. Quem Caesar, ut erat de se meritus et de re publica, donatum milibus CC collaudatumque ab octavis ordinibus ad primipilum se traducere pronuntiavit (eius enim opera castellum magna ex parte conservatum esse constabat) cohortemque postea duplici stipendio, frumento, veste, cibariis militaribusque donis amplissime donavit.

          Wiki is not always the most reliable source for information, particularly translations. I prefer the Loeb Classical Library.

          And from the text there is no evidence to support your claim that [my emphasis]:

          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          where he became Primus Pilus was awarded a pile of cash and any of the men in his cohort that survived were given double pay for life.


          From where did you source that piece of information?
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

            Wiki is not always the most reliable source for information, particularly translations. I prefer the Loeb Classical Library.

            And from the text there is no evidence to support your claim that [my emphasis]:



            From where did you source that piece of information?
            Do you ever actually address points instead of simply dismissing something as a whole? You actually didn't address ANY of the points in the post.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

              Do you ever actually address points instead of simply dismissing something as a whole? You actually didn't address ANY of the points in the post.
              rogue06 gave a wiki link. I gave the text from Caesar's Civil Wars in Latin. He then informed me his link had the same Latin text with translation. However, I prefer the Loeb Classical Library.

              I then asked him where he had sourced a piece of information that does not appear in the text.

              What points do you consider were not addressed?
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                rogue06 gave a wiki link. I gave the text from Caesar's Civil Wars in Latin. He then informed me his link had the same Latin text with translation. However, I prefer the Loeb Classical Library.

                I then asked him where he had sourced a piece of information that does not appear in the text.

                What points do you consider were not addressed?
                So that's a no.
                "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
                - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                  So that's a no.
                  That she is making such a big thing out of this is curious.

                  I'm starting to wonder if she clicked the hyperlink and noticed that the Latin translation was available as well, copied that in yet another effort to show that she "knows stuff."

                  She didn't expect that I'd bring up that I already provided a link to the passage -- in both English and Latin.

                  Surprised that her little act was accidentally exposed we get the show we are now seeing.

                  A statement that she didn't use that source but prefers the Loeb Classical Library instead.

                  Okay. NBD.

                  It is just that both the Latin versions appear identical, meaning there was no need to use Loeb's -- if it was indeed ever actually initially used.

                  Moreover, the reason provided for allegedly using Loeb is that

                  Wiki is not always the most reliable source for information, particularly translations


                  "particularly the translations."

                  But H_A never provided any sort of translation. She posted it in the original Latin[1].

                  And Wiki never had any problem supplying the Latin text of works accurately. It is, as H_A, the translations used some of the time.

                  But again, H_A wasn't offering a translation. So that can be dismissed as the reason.

                  So, if it wasn't as declared, because she wanted a superior translation, what was it?

                  Again, I suggest another incident of "I knows stuff."

                  It was an attempt to impress by posting the text in Latin.

                  Which was offered as an option for that particular passage in the Wiki source.

                  One that is identical to the one H_A posted.







                  1. ignoring changes over the years and debates among some Latin experts over how well we actually know the language


                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                    Do you ever actually address points instead of simply dismissing something as a whole? You actually didn't address ANY of the points in the post.
                    Kinda like, I don't know... maybe a ?
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      That she is making such a big thing out of this is curious.

                      I'm starting to wonder if she clicked the hyperlink and noticed that the Latin translation was available as well, copied that in yet another effort to show that she "knows stuff."

                      She didn't expect that I'd bring up that I already provided a link to the passage -- in both English and Latin.

                      Surprised that her little act was accidentally exposed we get the show we are now seeing.

                      A statement that she didn't use that source but prefers the Loeb Classical Library instead.
                      As I wrote on another thread I suspected you were trying to impress us with your "erudition".

                      Given that the original author [Caesar] only gives M. Cassius Scaeva a few lines, there is not a great deal to read up about him. Suetonius was writing at a later period and some of his comments need to be taken with the proverbial pinch of salt. We can see that in his account of the battle of Dyrrachium where he writes of the arrows found numbering one hundred and thirty thousand. In Civil Wars, Caesar writes that thirty thousand that were counted out to him. Suetonius also writes of Scaeva losing an eye. However, Caesar writes that:

                      Sed in castello nemo fuit omnino militum, quin vulneraretur, quattuorque ex una cohorte centuriones oculos amiserunt


                      There is no mention of Scaeva specifically losing an eye in that sentence, only four centurions from one of the cohorts.

                      Lucan's Pharsalia book VI can also be read as containing symbolic references, where Scaeva symbolises a wall [both human and the man-made].

                      stat non fragilis pro Caesare murus [ Translated by Duff as: He stands fast a stone wall in defence of Caesar]


                      Lucan's literary depiction of the bravery of Scaeva ends:

                      Infelix quanta dominum virtute parasti - Duff translation: Unhappy wretch how bravely you fought that a tyrant might rule over you.


                      The resultant plague and famine then being used in an allegorical sense that Caesar's forcing of the civil war was unnatural, to wit, Romans killing Romans. In his 1978 paper Saylor writes:

                      For Scaeva presents a culmination by expressing Caesar's influence on the individual human nature. He is the creature and product of Caesar because he has flourished in Caesar's service; his aristeia is inspired by pietas to Caesar. Now Caesar's effect has been shown first on inanimate nature by means of the wall, the non-human nature by means of plague and famine [...]Thus Scaeva who stands forth unique in the account as a single distinct personality only to be lost in his transformation is the appropriate culmination to mass humanity. That is, the ascending order of things transformed for the worse by Caesar is inanimate nature at large, human nature in general, and finally Scaeva, the individual human nature.["Belli Spes Inproba: The Theme of Walls in Lucan, Pharsalia VI", Charles F. Saylor Transactions of the American Philological Association [1974-], Vol. 108 (1978), pp. 243-257]


                      Hence your remark on another thread that Scaeva made:

                      Rambo look like a pussycat.


                      Reads as the sort of thing a thirteen year old school-boy might write. Unless of course you had been accessing some of those rather more popular "Boys Own" style Roman history sites.



                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                        As I wrote on another thread I suspected you were trying to impress us with your "erudition".

                        Given that the original author [Caesar] only gives M. Cassius Scaeva a few lines, there is not a great deal to read up about him. Suetonius was writing at a later period and some of his comments need to be taken with the proverbial pinch of salt. We can see that in his account of the battle of Dyrrachium where he writes of the arrows found numbering one hundred and thirty thousand. In Civil Wars, Caesar writes that thirty thousand that were counted out to him. Suetonius also writes of Scaeva losing an eye. However, Caesar writes that:

                        Sed in castello nemo fuit omnino militum, quin vulneraretur, quattuorque ex una cohorte centuriones oculos amiserunt


                        There is no mention of Scaeva specifically losing an eye in that sentence, only four centurions from one of the cohorts.

                        Lucan's Pharsalia book VI can also be read as containing symbolic references, where Scaeva symbolises a wall [both human and the man-made].

                        stat non fragilis pro Caesare murus [ Translated by Duff as: He stands fast a stone wall in defence of Caesar]


                        Lucan's literary depiction of the bravery of Scaeva ends:

                        Infelix quanta dominum virtute parasti - Duff translation: Unhappy wretch how bravely you fought that a tyrant might rule over you.


                        The resultant plague and famine then being used in an allegorical sense that Caesar's forcing of the civil war was unnatural, to wit, Romans killing Romans. In his 1978 paper Saylor writes:

                        For Scaeva presents a culmination by expressing Caesar's influence on the individual human nature. He is the creature and product of Caesar because he has flourished in Caesar's service; his aristeia is inspired by pietas to Caesar. Now Caesar's effect has been shown first on inanimate nature by means of the wall, the non-human nature by means of plague and famine [...]Thus Scaeva who stands forth unique in the account as a single distinct personality only to be lost in his transformation is the appropriate culmination to mass humanity. That is, the ascending order of things transformed for the worse by Caesar is inanimate nature at large, human nature in general, and finally Scaeva, the individual human nature.["Belli Spes Inproba: The Theme of Walls in Lucan, Pharsalia VI", Charles F. Saylor Transactions of the American Philological Association [1974-], Vol. 108 (1978), pp. 243-257]


                        Hence your remark on another thread that Scaeva made:

                        Rambo look like a pussycat.


                        Reads as the sort of thing a thirteen year old school-boy might write. Unless of course you had been accessing some of those rather more popular "Boys Own" style Roman history sites.


                        Of course various details will differ in separate accounts, particularly if they relied on different sources. That is only natural, and is a concept you have previously shown severe difficulties grasping, so I guess it shouldn't come as any surprise that it still causes you difficulties.

                        And thanks I guess for Saylor's analysis, although I can't see any relevance of it and it looks to be yet another instance of your wanting to show that you "knows stuff."

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Of course various details will differ in separate accounts, particularly if they relied on different sources.
                          The primary source of those ancient sources is Caesar's Civil Wars.

                          Furthermore, these texts have to be read in their historical context and not as some Boys Own adventure story.

                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            The primary source of those ancient sources is Caesar's Civil Wars.

                            Furthermore, these texts have to be read in their historical context and not as some Boys Own adventure story.
                            It is obviously a primary source. There well could have been others. Lucan's comments indicate that he was rightly viewed as a Roman hero (suggesting that other accounts with more detail likely circulated) but was used by Caesar for his own ends.

                            Moreover, what we have demonstrates that Cassius Scaevus preformed so admirably that he was promoted to Primus Pilus and was richly rewarded as a result.


                            So why did you feel it necessary to post the Latin of Caesar's passage? How did you think that would add anything? Just more of your wanting everyone to think that you "knows stuff" again?

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              It is obviously a primary source. There well could have been others.
                              Ah more speculative fantasies.


                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Lucan's comments indicate that he was rightly viewed as a Roman hero (suggesting that other accounts with more detail likely circulated) but was used by Caesar for his own ends.
                              Just read Lucan.

                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Moreover, what we have demonstrates that Cassius Scaevus preformed so admirably that he was promoted to Primus Pilus and was richly rewarded as a result.
                              We know that from Caesar and clearly this figure was a very brave soldier and he and his fellows were rewarded accordingly, but not [as you alleged]

                              given double pay for life


                              A comment for which, despite being asked, you have yet to provide an attested source.

                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              So why did you feel it necessary to post the Latin of Caesar's passage? How did you think that would add anything? Just more of your wanting everyone to think that you "knows stuff" again?
                              To provide context.

                              Something you are invariably loath to do.

                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                As I wrote on another thread I suspected you were trying to impress us with your "erudition.


                                Yes, that's not surprising, you're well known for trying to project your own behaviors onto other and then attack then for said behaviors.
                                "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
                                - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

                                Comment

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