Jesus Come Soon

[rogue06]

What did you find that was not cogent in my reply?

That Trajan did not carry out persecutions and that he gave instructions not to seek Christians out?

That he also instructed that they were not to be the subject of anonymous denunciations?

Perhaps Trajan understood that there was little need to seek Christians out since the identified themselves when they refused to offer sacrifices to the Roman gods.

[Gondwanaland]

What an interesting comment.

You consider that the only way someone may be more informed on a topic is because they were "dropped" on their "head as a child"?

Self-evidently no such misfortune ever befell you in your childhood.

You're not remotely informed on any topic. All you do is Google, which is why you project onto others so vehemently.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Perhaps Trajan understood that there was little need to seek Christians out since the identified themselves when they refused to offer sacrifices to the Roman gods.

Pliny writes of the Christians he had executed as "qui ad metamquam Christiani deferebantur" - charged with being Christians. The only question he says he asked these confessors was "interrogavi ipsos, an essent Christiani" - whether they admitted the charge. While Pliny appears to have some second thoughts and hence consulted the emperor, particularly asking if he should take the age of the accused into account, whether he should pardon those prepared to apostatize, and whether he should punish for the Name alone or for the flagitia cohaerentia nomini" - abominable crimes associated with being a Christian. We have Trajan's reply where he states "conquirendi non sunt" - Christians are not to be sought out and those accused by a "delator" - private prosecutor and are convicted must be punished. Anyhone who denies he is a Christian and proves by offering prayers is to receive pardon. It could be therefore suggested that Pliny justifiably took this to mean that punishment was for the Name only.

As for sacrificing to the Roman gods, more often it was a matter of sacrificing to "the gods" not specifically to "the gods of the Romans". Of course when the cult involved did concern the emperor it was usually an oath by his Genius [or in the East by his Τύχη]. The comment by Vigellius Saturninus, proconsul of Africa in 180 CE to the Scillitan martyrs was, no doubt, quite characteristic; "We too are religious and our religion is simple, and we swear by the Genius of our lord the emperor, and we pray for his welfare, as you also ought to do".

However, the procedure against Christians was in every case that which was used for the vast majority of criminal trials under the Principate; cogito extra ordinem [or extraordinaria]. Within the provinces capital trials under this process took place before the provincial governor [for example the interrogation of Jesus of Nazareth by Pontius Pilate].

Whereas in Rome the only trials that we have some evidence for with regard to Christians were before the Praefectus Urbi or a Praefectus Praetorio. Certainly with regard to citizens brought up on such charges it not be accurate to imagine that they were subjected to summary proceedings simply by pure coercitio but were given proper legal trials involving the exercise of iurisdictio in its fullest sense.

At later periods as Cyprian [c. 210 – 258 CE] notes; following the decree by Decius in 250 CE there were other Christians who were never arrested or called upon to make any kind of public statement. He refers to these as the stantes. Their behaviour was dangerous as., technically all faithful subjects were required to make the sacrifice. This was done in the present of a magistrate and each individual would, in return, be provided with a libellus [little book] as proof of their participation. Given that some Christians escaped execution [the punishment for not being possession of a libellus] would seem to indicate that the local authorities found it difficult to prove who had actually performed the sacrifice, but it also seems that they made little effort to try.

Hence the wholesale persecution of Christians that has been accepted by many Christians as fact is not what the actual situation appears to have been.

[Sparko]

It seems I was right you are in play-yard mode.

It's called a Playground, not Play-yard.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

It's called a Playground, not Play-yard.

You say potato and I say potato

[Sparko]

As Trajan makes quite clear in his reply these people were not be sought out, nor were they to be subjected to anonymous accusations. That is not persecution.

Very surprised to hear such a statement from a lesbian who lived through the later half of the 20th century. Good to know gays have never been persecuted in the USA or Europe. And are not persecuted now in muslim countries.

[Sparko]

You say potato and I say potato

I said, "playground"

[Cerebrum123]

It's called a Playground, not Play-yard.

A play yard is even more infantile than a playground. It's basically one of those almost cage like play pens for young toddlers that parents use when they are too busy to watch their kid directly.

[rogue06]

Pliny writes of the Christians he had executed as "qui ad metamquam Christiani deferebantur" - charged with being Christians. The only question he says he asked these confessors was "interrogavi ipsos, an essent Christiani" - whether they admitted the charge. While Pliny appears to have some second thoughts and hence consulted the emperor, particularly asking if he should take the age of the accused into account, whether he should pardon those prepared to apostatize, and whether he should punish for the Name alone or for the flagitia cohaerentia nomini" - abominable crimes associated with being a Christian. We have Trajan's reply where he states "conquirendi non sunt" - Christians are not to be sought out and those accused by a "delator" - private prosecutor and are convicted must be punished. Anyhone who denies he is a Christian and proves by offering prayers is to receive pardon. It could be therefore suggested that Pliny justifiably took this to mean that punishment was for the Name only.

As for sacrificing to the Roman gods, more often it was a matter of sacrificing to "the gods" not specifically to "the gods of the Romans". Of course when the cult involved did concern the emperor it was usually an oath by his Genius [or in the East by his Τύχη]. The comment by Vigellius Saturninus, proconsul of Africa in 180 CE to the Scillitan martyrs was, no doubt, quite characteristic; "We too are religious and our religion is simple, and we swear by the Genius of our lord the emperor, and we pray for his welfare, as you also ought to do".

However, the procedure against Christians was in every case that which was used for the vast majority of criminal trials under the Principate; cogito extra ordinem [or extraordinaria]. Within the provinces capital trials under this process took place before the provincial governor [for example the interrogation of Jesus of Nazareth by Pontius Pilate].

Whereas in Rome the only trials that we have some evidence for with regard to Christians were before the Praefectus Urbi or a Praefectus Praetorio. Certainly with regard to citizens brought up on such charges it not be accurate to imagine that they were subjected to summary proceedings simply by pure coercitio but were given proper legal trials involving the exercise of iurisdictio in its fullest sense.

At later periods as Cyprian [c. 210 – 258 CE] notes; following the decree by Decius in 250 CE there were other Christians who were never arrested or called upon to make any kind of public statement. He refers to these as the stantes. Their behaviour was dangerous as., technically all faithful subjects were required to make the sacrifice. This was done in the present of a magistrate and each individual would, in return, be provided with a libellus [little book] as proof of their participation. Given that some Christians escaped execution [the punishment for not being possession of a libellus] would seem to indicate that the local authorities found it difficult to prove who had actually performed the sacrifice, but it also seems that they made little effort to try.

Hence the wholesale persecution of Christians that has been accepted by many Christians as fact is not what the actual situation appears to have been.

Oh look, H_A has little to say about this so instead we get a post where she wants to show that she "knows stuff."

Pliny didn't seem very enthusiastic over the idea of executing Christians for being Christians but the fact is that simply being a Christian was enough for Trajan to warrant execution, and by refusing to offer sacrifice Christians tended to identify themselves to those who would be eager to execute them.

[rogue06]

Very surprised to hear such a statement from a lesbian who lived through the later half of the 20th century. Good to know gays have never been persecuted in the USA or Europe. And are not persecuted now in muslim countries.

And by the standards she sets, the Jews were never really "persecuted" throughout the Middle Ages. Just some sporadic violent episodes.

[CivilDiscourse]

Oh look, H_A has little to say about this so instead we get a post where she wants to show that she "knows stuff."

Pliny didn't seem very enthusiastic over the idea of executing Christians for being Christians but the fact is that simply being a Christian was enough for Trajan to warrant execution, and by refusing to offer sacrifice Christians tended to identify themselves to those who would be eager to execute them.

Keep this up and she'll sign off with a 5-dollar word.

[Sparko]

Keep this up and she'll sign off with a 5-dollar word.

Floccinaucinihilipilification!

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

A play yard is even more infantile than a playground. It's basically one of those almost cage like play pens for young toddlers that parents use when they are too busy to watch their kid directly.

That seems even more appropriate!

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Oh look, H_A has little to say about this so instead we get a post where she wants to show that she "knows stuff."

Pliny didn't seem very enthusiastic over the idea of executing Christians for being Christians but the fact is that simply being a Christian was enough for Trajan to warrant execution, and by refusing to offer sacrifice Christians tended to identify themselves to those who would be eager to execute them.

Only if a case was brought against the individual. And as I wrote that was not always the case. Christians did lie low, some never get called to make their sacrifice, and some used the law to get around certain issues. Other Christians, when they found themselves in front of the magistrate, made the decision to sacrifice to the emperor's Genius. In North Africa the effects of the Decian decree led to great tension and friction in the Carthage church when these apostate Christians attempted to re-join the Christian community.

And if, as you allege, the Romans were

eager to execute them

Why did C. Arrius Antoninus not take the opportunity of showing his eagerness by executing those Christians who came to him demanding to be executed?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Very surprised to hear such a statement from a lesbian who lived through the later half of the 20th century. Good to know gays have never been persecuted in the USA or Europe. And are not persecuted now in muslim countries.

I know of no incidents in recent history within either Western Europe or the USA where gay individuals have been required [by decree] to renounce their sexual preferences by making a sacrifice in the presence of a magistrate and, in return, have received a certificate to prove that they had done so.

Perhaps you could provide some examples.