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Are Some Germans Taking Their Cue From Iran?
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"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Oh you were attempting to being ironic? How very droll.Last edited by Gondwanaland; 07-06-2022, 12:39 PM.
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Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
There's that analogy impairment flaring up again.
Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
CD, misreading the post and assuming that H_A was instead disagreeing with the claim that Republicans have had a pro-abortion wing, made a faltering attempt to analogize his incomprehension into a claim that a lack of of progressive legislation would signal an absence of progressives in the Democratic Party. Reading comprehension has never been his forte"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe British camps were concentration camps established for both Boers and black Africans and thousands died of disease and hunger. I will not post any pictures of children dying from disease or emaciated by hunger but you can find them online.
They had no source of fresh water. The fountain that was supposed to have been built (the way most people got water in cities) in the ghetto got rerouted to in front of a powerful local noble home instead. The walls forced overcrowding and diseases hit the population especially hard.
Last edited by rogue06; 07-06-2022, 12:59 PM.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
It appears that I am not alone:
,
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThe first official ghetto was in Rome, in the Travestere section of the city where a wall with a gate was built to encompass it. The Jews were locked inside at night and were required to pay for the construction of the wall. The specific part of the city that was picked was in one of the least desirable areas, prone to constant flooding from the nearby Tiber. While many Jews already lived there prior to it being made a ghetto, they at least could leave when the river flooded. And we're talking about a river going through a Medieval city
They had no source of fresh water. The fountain that was supposed to have been built (the way most people got water in cities) in the ghetto got rerouted to in front of a powerful local noble home instead. The walls forced overcrowding and diseases hit the population especially hard.
And of course all these were established by Christians."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I think you may discover that both Frankfurt and Venice had Jewish ghettoes pre-dating that established in Rome.
And of course all these were established by Christians.
The point being, what took place during the Boer War or the Reservation system in the U.S., matches up to this rather than concentration camps.
The mass homicide centers that were designed to slaughter people wholesale that were the concentration camps are a unique German construct. And while countries have had places to send folks to work until they eventually die (the old salt mines come to mind), they appear to be the first places ever designed for masses of people to be sent not to work until they die but to work while they awaited mass execution.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI think you overlooked the word "official" in the description.
The Venetian Ghetto was the area of Venice in which Jews were forced to live by the government of the Venetian Republic. The English word ghetto is derived from the Jewish ghetto in Venice. The Venetian Ghetto was instituted on 29 March 1516 by decree of Doge Leonardo Loredan and the Venetian Senate.
And here:
Ghettoization began in Venice on March 29, 1516, when the Senate ordered all Jews residing in the city to move behind the walls of the Ghetto Nuovo. The decree stipulated that the Jews would be locked into the ghetto at night behind gates and would undergo continual
surveillance. Jews could not own ghetto property; therefore, they rented their high-rent apartments in perpetuity. [See: Dana E Katz, The Jewish Ghetto and Visual Imagination of Early Modern Venice, 2017, CUP p.2. Introduction.
And here:
[...]In 1516 a compromise was reached: all those Jews currently in the city and all those who were to come in the future were to reside segregated behind walls in the area known as the ghetto nuovo, thereby given a new meaning to the word ghetto previously used to refer to an iron foundry on that site. Soon a series of charters [condotte] evolved, authorising those Jews to live in the city for five-year periods and engage in money-lending and the sale of second-hand goods [strazzaria] under carefully stipulated terms. Benjamin Ravid, “The First Charter of the Jewish Merchants of Venice, 1589,” AJS Review, vol. 1 (1976): 187-222.
All that does rather bear the hallmark of official edicts.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I think you overlooked attested historical facts. From your favourite reference source.
The Venetian Ghetto was the area of Venice in which Jews were forced to live by the government of the Venetian Republic. The English word ghetto is derived from the Jewish ghetto in Venice. The Venetian Ghetto was instituted on 29 March 1516 by decree of Doge Leonardo Loredan and the Venetian Senate.
And here:
Ghettoization began in Venice on March 29, 1516, when the Senate ordered all Jews residing in the city to move behind the walls of the Ghetto Nuovo. The decree stipulated that the Jews would be locked into the ghetto at night behind gates and would undergo continual
surveillance. Jews could not own ghetto property; therefore, they rented their high-rent apartments in perpetuity. [See: Dana E Katz, The Jewish Ghetto and Visual Imagination of Early Modern Venice, 2017, CUP p.2. Introduction.
And here:
[...]In 1516 a compromise was reached: all those Jews currently in the city and all those who were to come in the future were to reside segregated behind walls in the area known as the ghetto nuovo, thereby given a new meaning to the word ghetto previously used to refer to an iron foundry on that site. Soon a series of charters [condotte] evolved, authorising those Jews to live in the city for five-year periods and engage in money-lending and the sale of second-hand goods [strazzaria] under carefully stipulated terms. Benjamin Ravid, “The First Charter of the Jewish Merchants of Venice, 1589,” AJS Review, vol. 1 (1976): 187-222.
All that does rather bear the hallmark of official edicts.
Jewish Ghettos in Europe:
The ghetto system began in Renaissance Italy in July 1555 with Pope Paul IV's issuing of the Cum nimis absurdum. This change in papal policy implemented a series of restrictions on Jewish life that dramatically reshaped their place in society.
And I'm sure that you own the other works and didn't just get it from, like Here
In any case, the point that you are trying to bury with your cavil behavior is that what happened during the Boer War as well as the Reservation system established in the U.S., far more resembles the establishment of ghettos than it does concentration camps.
The mass homicide centers that were designed to slaughter people wholesale that were the concentration camps are a unique German construct. And while countries have had places to send folks to work until they eventually die (the old salt mines come to mind), they appear to be the first places ever designed for masses of people to be sent not to work until they die but to work while they awaited mass execution.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostSince you are again citing Wikipedia (while again feeling it necessary to pretend it is an uncommon occurrence...
Jewish Ghettos in Europe:
The ghetto system began in Renaissance Italy in July 1555 with Pope Paul IV's issuing of the Cum nimis absurdum. This change in papal policy implemented a series of restrictions on Jewish life that dramatically reshaped their place in society.
It would appear that the ghetto established in Venice by official edict predates that of Rome albeit by only a few decades.
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIn any case, the point that you are trying to bury with your cavil behavior is that what happened during the Boer War as well as the Reservation system established in the U.S., far more resembles the establishment of ghettos than it does concentration camps.
The mass homicide centers that were designed to slaughter people wholesale that were the concentration camps are a unique German construct. And while countries have had places to send folks to work until they eventually die (the old salt mines come to mind), they appear to be the first places ever designed for masses of people to be sent not to work until they die but to work while they awaited mass execution.
Nor is pointing out your error being "cavil".
In my original post I cited an article that dealt with the inaccuracies put forward by a British politician [who fancies himself as something of a historian rather as does his former leader Boris Johnson] concerning the British concentration camps. I made it clear that the Nazi camps were unique in that they were intended for mass extermination. I even highlighted the relevant sentences in the original article.
However, that does not alter the fact that the British did concentrate over 100,000 people and some 48,000 died from disease and hunger.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostI was humouring you, knowing as I do that Wiki is your favourite reference source.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe ghetto system began in Renaissance Italy in July 1555 with Pope Paul IV's issuing of the Cum nimis absurdum. This change in papal policy implemented a series of restrictions on Jewish life that dramatically reshaped their place in society.
It would appear that the ghetto established in Venice by official edict predates that of Rome albeit by only a few decades.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostI never mentioned "the Reservation system established in the U.S.".
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostNor is pointing out your error being "cavil".
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIn my original post I cited an article that dealt with the inaccuracies put forward by a British politician [who fancies himself as something of a historian rather as does his former leader Boris Johnson] concerning the British concentration camps. I made it clear that the Nazi camps were unique in that they were intended for mass extermination. I even highlighted the relevant sentences in the original article.
Comparing them to what the Nazis did reeks of trying to minimize what the latter did. I mean what's next from you? Outright Holocaust denialism? You keep inching closer and closer.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostYou do love to project.
Oh, what do we have here? Someone is using "my" favorite source yet again
It would seem that "official" is the operative word. One could claim that the Roman ghetto was already largely the Jewish quarter centuries prior to it being made official.
So? Both it and the camps established during the Boer War have erroneously been considered predecessors to the concentration camps of the Nazis when it would be far more accurate to compare them to a continuation of the ghetto system (which the Nazis also employed).
That would first require that you point out an actual error
Again, the so-called "British concentration camps" far more resembled the ghetto system that had been established centuries earlier than the mass extermination facilities that the Nazis set up.
Comparing them to what the Nazis did reeks of trying to minimize what the latter did. I mean what's next from you? Outright Holocaust denialism? You keep inching closer and closer.
The article noted:
Rees-Mogg was right on one point: the concentration camps didn’t have the same aims as Adolf Hitler’s extermination camps during the Second World War. The aim in South Africa wasn’t systematic murder.
And I have previously pointed out those remarks from the article to you.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
The idea of concentrating certain people was used by the British. However, as I made clear with my emphasis on the ante-penultimate and penultimate sentences in that article.
Rees-Mogg was right on one point: the concentration camps didn’t have the same aims as Adolf Hitler’s extermination camps during the Second World War. The aim in South Africa wasn’t systematic murder.
That short term memory problem of yours appears to be getting worse.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
The article was not from me.
The article noted:
Rees-Mogg was right on one point: the concentration camps didn’t have the same aims as Adolf Hitler’s extermination camps during the Second World War. The aim in South Africa wasn’t systematic murder.
And I have previously pointed out those remarks from the article to you.
That short term memory problem of yours appears to be getting worse.
What's next, that tree is just like a car except for...
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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