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Derail: Warren and the SBC

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  • #61
    So, while it's on my mind....

    The conservative churches (inerrantists, etc.) look at the churches and whole denominations who have gone "woke" or liberal or "out there" and one of the common denominators, maybe even the "first step" is "women clergy".

    Now, mind you - this is a perception - but I think it's a legitimate representation of the concern of many conservative churches who still preach the Word.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

      From a practical standpoint, why? It's like "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
      Note that I advocate for allowing congregations to make their own decisions about women clergy, without threat of repercussions.
      Prior to 2000, things were working reasonably well in the SBC as it was (by accounts available) except for a smallish group of "men only" advocates who didn't like the existence of women pastors. It wasn't broken, but someone decided to fix it anyway, and there were some repercussions. Prior to 2000 the SBC had no explicit restriction on women clergy. JBC (with ~10% women clergy) and SBC had a reasonably strong relationship. The introduction of the restriction created a "diplomatic incident." Whether there was any long term fall out or to what extent I don't know, but the change by the SBC did not enhance relations with the JBC.

      If a church is working well, and nobody is pushing for female clergy or deacons or elders, why open that can of worms?
      Warren's churches are not the only SBC churches with women clergy, so there is a push, however gentle.

      Permitting women to be subordinate pastors would violate the same rules that are said to prevent women as lead pastors. Paul's instructions don't have an exception clause.

      In conservative churches, the "women clergy" seems to be one large step toward the whole range of other "liberal" issues, like ordaining gay/lesbian 'ministers'.
      Many years ago, when I had my first post C=64 computer, someone tried to push that point. I replied that the Bible doesn't have being a woman in its list of sins. The "range of liberal issues" is a legitimate concern. Making place for feminist (or any other ~ist) theologians in pulpits and on seminary faculties will cause difficulties, whether the theologian in question is a man or a woman. Quite honestly, I have met more men pastors who are a threat to preaching sound doctrine and discipleship than I have women - that said, I have met one or two of the women who are each as bad as the worst of the men. (Male feminists are really a problem.)

      And - let's be clear - not arguing with you, Tab -- I always enjoy interacting with you. (so far )
      Arguing is fine ... when arguing = debating.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        Note that I advocate for allowing congregations to make their own decisions about women clergy, without threat of repercussions.
        Prior to 2000, things were working reasonably well in the SBC as it was (by accounts available) except for a smallish group of "men only" advocates who didn't like the existence of women pastors. It wasn't broken, but someone decided to fix it anyway, and there were some repercussions. Prior to 2000 the SBC had no explicit restriction on women clergy. JBC (with ~10% women clergy) and SBC had a reasonably strong relationship. The introduction of the restriction created a "diplomatic incident." Whether there was any long term fall out or to what extent I don't know, but the change by the SBC did not enhance relations with the JBC.
        Gotcha.

        Warren's churches are not the only SBC churches with women clergy, so there is a push, however gentle.

        Permitting women to be subordinate pastors would violate the same rules that are said to prevent women as lead pastors. Paul's instructions don't have an exception clause.
        Gotcha II

        Many years ago, when I had my first post C=64 computer, someone tried to push that point. I replied that the Bible doesn't have being a woman in its list of sins. The "range of liberal issues" is a legitimate concern. Making place for feminist (or any other ~ist) theologians in pulpits and on seminary faculties will cause difficulties, whether the theologian in question is a man or a woman. Quite honestly, I have met more men pastors who are a threat to preaching sound doctrine and discipleship than I have women - that said, I have met one or two of the women who are each as bad as the worst of the men. (Male feminists are really a problem.)
        Gotcha III

        Arguing is fine ... when arguing = debating.
        (Don't let H_A see you say that -- she freaks because she thinks wooden literally that "debating" means formal debate )

        Thanks, Tab - I appreciate your input.

        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          So, while it's on my mind....

          The conservative churches (inerrantists, etc.) look at the churches and whole denominations who have gone "woke" or liberal or "out there" and one of the common denominators, maybe even the "first step" is "women clergy".

          Now, mind you - this is a perception - but I think it's a legitimate representation of the concern of many conservative churches who still preach the Word.
          Ok, several things here.

          -- It's my impression that to a significant extent, "inerrancy" is largely a 'murican concern.

          -- On an individual basis, several of the primary current advocates for egalitarianism self-identify as "inerrantist," including Gordon Fee, Craig Keener, Ben Witherington III, Phil Payne, and Linda Belleville. An old essay by Fee was one of the things that pointed me toward my current beliefs.

          -- Also on an individual basis, some of the 19th-C proto-fundamentalist evangelicals -- who I presume espoused "inerrancy" or something equivalent at that time -- advocated for full equality of women in all types and levels of ministry; examples include D.L. Moody, A.B. Simpson, W.B. Riley, and A.J. Gordon.

          -- On a corporate basis, the AG has always (about 110 years) allowed women in all ministry roles, and has affirmed "inerrancy" probably as long as that term has existed (and formally restated that in a 2015 "Position Paper"). CBE -- Christians for Biblical Equality -- does not AFAICT use the term "inerrancy," but I've never seen them argue in a way incompatible with inerrancy.


          It's easy to understand your concern. You look at, e.g., the ELCA or PCUSA or some parts of the Episcopal church, and they're bonkers. I'm not part of any of those groups, so I don't know how they frame their arguments. The people and groups I cited all argue from generally evangelical presuppositions, meaning they have a high regard for Scripture, and they frame their arguments primarily in terms of Scripture, not in terms of "fairness" or "justice" or some such thing.

          I'll also note that sometimes things go in the opposite direction to what complementarians fear. Some of the organizations founded by those 19th-C egalitarian proto-fundamentalists began with that same theology, but then over the decades became complementarian at least in part as a reaction against the early secular feminist movement.

          It may also be worth noting that Catholic scholar Gary Macy has done some interesting, if hardly conclusive, research indicating that up until AD 1200 or so, the Church ordained women to approximately the same roles as men. Recent video.
          Last edited by NorrinRadd; 06-27-2022, 03:31 AM.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

            It may also be worth noting that Catholic scholar Gary Macy has done some interesting, if hardly conclusive, research indicating that up until AD 1200 or so, the Church ordained women to approximately the same roles as men. Recent video.
            I was aware of a late date for ordained women in the Eastern Church (around 800), but not quite as late as Macy states. As far as I was aware, Rome instituted the men only rule a couple of centuries earlier. This will take some checking.



            ETA: OK, the book looks solid on the basis of the Kindle preview, so I have bought a copy.
            Last edited by tabibito; 06-27-2022, 03:48 AM.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

              Ok, several things here.

              -- It's my impression that to a significant extent, "inerrancy" is largely a 'murican concern.
              Zattafact? Didn't know that.

              -- On an individual basis, several of the primary current advocates for egalitarianism self-identify as "inerrantist," including Gordon Fee, Craig Keener, Ben Witherington III, Phil Payne, and Linda Belleville. An old essay by Fee was one of the things that pointed me toward my current beliefs.

              -- Also on an individual basis, some of the 19th-C proto-fundamentalist evangelicals -- who I presume espoused "inerrancy" or something equivalent at that time -- advocated for full equality of women in all types and levels of ministry; examples include D.L. Moody, A.B. Simpson, W.B. Riley, and A.J. Gordon.

              -- On a corporate basis, the AG has always (about 110 years) allowed women in all ministry roles, and has affirmed "inerrancy" probably as long as that term has existed (and formally restated that in a 2015 "Position Paper"). CBE -- Christians for Biblical Equality -- does not AFAICT use the term "inerrancy," but I've never seen them argue in a way incompatible with inerrancy.
              OK

              It's easy to understand your concern. You look at, e.g., the ELCA or PCUSA or some parts of the Episcopal church, and they're bonkers. I'm not part of any of those groups, so I don't know how they frame their arguments. The people and groups I cited all argue from generally evangelical presuppositions, meaning they have a high regard for Scripture, and they frame their arguments primarily in terms of Scripture, not in terms of "fairness" or "justice" or some such thing.

              I'll also note that sometimes things go in the opposite direction to what complementarians fear. Some of the organizations founded by those 19th-C egalitarian proto-fundamentalists began with that same theology, but then over the decades became complementarian at least in part as a reaction against the early secular feminist movement.

              It may also be worth noting that Catholic scholar Gary Macy has done some interesting, if hardly conclusive, research indicating that up until AD 1200 or so, the Church ordained women to approximately the same roles as men. Recent video.
              So, it would be interesting to see any denomination or church that had a high percentage of females in leadership roles that was not also "liberal" in the direction of GLBTX+.
              Maybe it's like the "dancing leads to sex" argument.

              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                So, it would be interesting to see any denomination or church that had a high percentage of females in leadership roles that was not also "liberal" in the direction of GLBTX+.
                Maybe it's like the "dancing leads to sex" argument.
                AG explicitly allows women in leadership, but I'm of the impression that in actual practice, it's not a "high percentage." They are definitely not LGBT+ affirming.

                Vineyard, a relatively young denomination, has only allowed women in leadership in the past several years. A girl... woman... from my high school class pastors a church in or near Columbus OH. I think in the case of Vineyard, it's still not a "high percentage" that are women. They are not LGBT+ affirming yet, but it's early in the process.
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                  AG explicitly allows women in leadership, but I'm of the impression that in actual practice, it's not a "high percentage." They are definitely not LGBT+ affirming.

                  Vineyard, a relatively young denomination, has only allowed women in leadership in the past several years. A girl... woman... from my high school class pastors a church in or near Columbus OH. I think in the case of Vineyard, it's still not a "high percentage" that are women. They are not LGBT+ affirming yet, but it's early in the process.
                  So far, in none of my ministry positions, has the subject come up in a sense that "we should...". And I really don't push the issue as "nope, you can't".
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                    So far, in none of my ministry positions, has the subject come up in a sense that "we should...". And I really don't push the issue as "nope, you can't".
                    But it is inevitable that you will be put in a position where you will have to state your position.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      But it is inevitable that you will be put in a position where you will have to state your position.
                      Probably not -- especially as I get closer to retirement. I'm nearly 70 years old.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                        Probably not -- especially as I get closer to retirement. I'm nearly 70 years old.
                        Do you have any say in who will be appointed your successor?
                        Is it likely that you will be asked to venture an opinion about the candidates?
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          Do you have any say in who will be appointed your successor?
                          Is it likely that you will be asked to venture an opinion about the candidates?
                          Only if asked. I suspect I'll be asked to help put the pastor search committee together, but I'd probably refer them to our Association's director for guidance.

                          Even then, I don't think that the subject of "could it be a woman" is even conceivable.

                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                            Zattafact? Didn't know that.



                            OK



                            So, it would be interesting to see any denomination or church that had a high percentage of females in leadership roles that was not also "liberal" in the direction of GLBTX+.
                            Maybe it's like the "dancing leads to sex" argument.
                            The Methodists have ordained women since Wesley's day. And the UMC is in full schism over the 'affirming' nonsense now. The decline is not causally linked to the ordination of women - the argument for which has always been Scriptural or it wouldn't have been accepted into the Discipline all these years.

                            At the height of the Great Awakening when Methodism was in its zenith, we ordained women and were anything but what modern liberals are. Mind, social liberalism was born in the pulpit but as a call to mission in the world around us, not just in some far off land.

                            The problem with the progressives isn't that they think anything and its brother should be 'accepted' no matter what it just did on the carpet - it's that they reject the authority of Scripture. Not merely a disagreement about the meaning or interpretation but that Scripture has any authority at all.

                            I've been a supply pastor and I sought ordination. I wouldn't have done either if I hadn't been confident that women are allowed to lead in church in accordance with Scripture. Now, if God tells me I'm wrong when I get to heaven, I'll be upset with myself - but just because I got it wrong, not because I wasn't fully willing to follow Scriptural authority.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

                              The Methodists have ordained women since Wesley's day. And the UMC is in full schism over the 'affirming' nonsense now. The decline is not causally linked to the ordination of women - the argument for which has always been Scriptural or it wouldn't have been accepted into the Discipline all these years.

                              At the height of the Great Awakening when Methodism was in its zenith, we ordained women and were anything but what modern liberals are. Mind, social liberalism was born in the pulpit but as a call to mission in the world around us, not just in some far off land.

                              The problem with the progressives isn't that they think anything and its brother should be 'accepted' no matter what it just did on the carpet - it's that they reject the authority of Scripture. Not merely a disagreement about the meaning or interpretation but that Scripture has any authority at all.

                              I've been a supply pastor and I sought ordination. I wouldn't have done either if I hadn't been confident that women are allowed to lead in church in accordance with Scripture. Now, if God tells me I'm wrong when I get to heaven, I'll be upset with myself - but just because I got it wrong, not because I wasn't fully willing to follow Scriptural authority.
                              I'm a dinosaur - I'll be gone before too long, so everybody else can go on believing and doing what they want.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

                                The Methodists have ordained women since Wesley's day. And the UMC is in full schism over the 'affirming' nonsense now. The decline is not causally linked to the ordination of women - the argument for which has always been Scriptural or it wouldn't have been accepted into the Discipline all these years.

                                At the height of the Great Awakening when Methodism was in its zenith, we ordained women and were anything but what modern liberals are. Mind, social liberalism was born in the pulpit but as a call to mission in the world around us, not just in some far off land.

                                The problem with the progressives isn't that they think anything and its brother should be 'accepted' no matter what it just did on the carpet - it's that they reject the authority of Scripture. Not merely a disagreement about the meaning or interpretation but that Scripture has any authority at all.

                                I've been a supply pastor and I sought ordination. I wouldn't have done either if I hadn't been confident that women are allowed to lead in church in accordance with Scripture. Now, if God tells me I'm wrong when I get to heaven, I'll be upset with myself - but just because I got it wrong, not because I wasn't fully willing to follow Scriptural authority.
                                This is interesting. I was aware that Methodists and other Wesleyans had always ordained women, but according to the 2005-ish edition of Discovering Biblical Equality, Wesley believed Scripture argued against the practice, but (based on observation) that his movement was a special dispensation. (I infer this was in keeping with the "Experience" and "Reason" elements of the "Wesleyan Quadrilateral.")
                                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                                Beige Federalist.

                                Nationalist Christian.

                                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                                Comment

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