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Derail: Warren and the SBC

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  • Derail: Warren and the SBC

    Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

    You’re not clarifying here. What argument are you claiming he’s making, defending, failing to support … whatever. Without that referent, any claims about the weight of his biography are groundless. Warren, more than any other Southern Baptist, has let us know what he’s thinking. Enough with the hand-waving already. What are you objecting to. Explain as if I wasn’t a mind-reader.
    Handwaving? It was clear enough from your own post that Warren was arguing against being bounced by the SBC for ordaining women. I was addressing the points that he made in his own defence. Where is the lack of clarity? If I had been addressing issues other than those you had raised, I would have declared the fact.

    But please keep in mind that while I’ll try to be respectful, it’s my sincere belief that every church proclaiming a special relationship with the creator of the universe is preaching false doctrine.
    Doesn’t seem to me that any religion would fail to make that claim with regard to its own god(s). As to the specifics of a special relationship with the god who created the universe, that would be a matter of whether he had decided that he wanted a special relationship.

    The Bible says nothing about our universe. The timing is wrong. The biology is wrong. The geology is wrong. The history is wrong. The prehistory is wrong. The cosmology is wrong. The cosmogony is wrong.
    Much seems to be wrong in Genesis, certainly. For the most part, there’s little reason to suppose that anything prior to Abraham is more than a collection of traditional tales.

    … The creatures described as being formed in the image of that creator … are not human. There’s no DNA in dirt.
    For the one who created the universe, such a difficulty would not be expected to be an impediment.

    And you want to argue about false doctrines.
    It may have escaped your notice, but I was actually arguing for true doctrine. On scriptural grounds, Warren is justified in ordaining women as leaders of in a church, even as the chief leader. Whether he is justified in claiming association with the SBC whilst violating the rules of its charter is arguably another matter.

    … no … analyses of a rebuttably-inspired sacred text needed.
    Well now – nothing in scripture can be rightly interpreted to say that everything in the Bible is divinely inspired. And there are sections of Paul’s writing where divine inspiration is explicitly denied.

    “We have to decide if we will treat each other as allies or adversaries,” Mr. Warren said.
    So it seems. However it could be said that Warren has entered into partnership with the SBC whilst flying false colours.

    I’m okay with putting aside the adversarial posture. I have no hope for reciprocity, however.
    So responding to your comments would make the respondent the bad-guy? I’m comfortable with that.

    Common sense, basic decency, placing people in positions for which they’re suited by passion, compassion, and training — not their dangly bits. Taking advantage of the gifts granted to them ...
    It is a two way street. Being willing let others run their congregations in a way that suits them, provided that there is no harm intended (or actual) by that organisation, would seem to come under the heading of basic decency. Whether to restrict leadership to men, given that the Bible can be reasonably said to be ambiguous on the issue, is entirely up to the group concerned. In short, no one has grounds to demand that the SBC change its rules on the issue of ordination of women. Debating the issue is another matter.

    If your scriptures are keeping you from doing the right thing ...
    They aren’t and won’t. “God accepts anyone, from anywhere, who does what is right;” the converse also applies.

    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

  • #2
    Thanks, Tab.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #3
      So, what actually was happening was that Rick Warren was retiring from his Church, and had announced a young couple to take the reins.
      It's a young man who will serve as lead pastor, and his wife as "teaching pastor".

      Rick Warren Reveals Successor, Retirement Date as Saddleback Church Pastor

      And, yes, his church can ordain and/or call women as pastors, but it's really not kosher to claim to affirm the Baptist Faith & Message while doing so.

      “This afternoon, at our all-staff meeting held at the Lake Forest campus, I was finally able to publicly announce that we have found God’s couple to lead our congregation, and that they have agreed to come!” Saddleback Church pastor Rick Warren told his Orange County, California, congregation in an email on Thursday.

      Today’s email included a link to a video featuring Warren and his wife, Kay, along with Andy and Stacie Wood of Echo Church in San Jose, California. Andy Wood, 40, is currently Echo’s lead pastor, while Stacie Wood is a teaching pastor. They will have the same roles at Saddleback.


      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        So, what actually was happening was that Rick Warren was retiring from his Church, and had announced a young couple to take the reins.
        It's a young man who will serve as lead pastor, and his wife as "teaching pastor".

        Rick Warren Reveals Successor, Retirement Date as Saddleback Church Pastor

        And, yes, his church can ordain and/or call women as pastors, but it's really not kosher to claim to affirm the Baptist Faith & Message while doing so.

        “This afternoon, at our all-staff meeting held at the Lake Forest campus, I was finally able to publicly announce that we have found God’s couple to lead our congregation, and that they have agreed to come!” Saddleback Church pastor Rick Warren told his Orange County, California, congregation in an email on Thursday.

        Today’s email included a link to a video featuring Warren and his wife, Kay, along with Andy and Stacie Wood of Echo Church in San Jose, California. Andy Wood, 40, is currently Echo’s lead pastor, while Stacie Wood is a teaching pastor. They will have the same roles at Saddleback.

        Not that he's ever been much of a prize but wow, Rick Warren looks fat and decrepit in that picture.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

        Comment


        • #5
          What's a "teaching pastor" as compared to a "head pastor"?


          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            What's a "teaching pastor" as compared to a "head pastor"?
            And the fight is on!

            (By the way, HELLO, Fellow Prude!!!)

            I'm old fashioned - a woman is not to be in authority over a man, so if this "teaching pastor" leads the women's group, I don't see it as a problem.
            But it never stops there --- Beth Moore, Paula White, Joyce Meyer....

            Here's an interesting article by Mohler...

            Women Pastors, Women Preachers, and the Looming Test of the Southern Baptist Convention

            "Behold, a little cloud like a man's hand is rising from the sea." That was the message the prophet Elijah heard from his servant. Then, "And in a little while the heavens grew black with clouds and wind, and there was a great rain."

            That's the way issues often arise. At first, there is only a small cloud. Soon thereafter, here comes the downpour. Well, here it comes.

            The issue of women serving as pastors and preachers in churches roiled the Southern Baptist Convention from the 1970s until the Conservative Resurgence in the Convention clarified the question conclusively in the Baptist Faith & Message revision of 2000. There never was a moment when more than a handful of women served as pastors of SBC churches, but the mainline Protestant denominations were rushing headlong into the ordination of women as pastors and (Episcopal) priests, driven by two major energies — first, the demands of second wave feminism and, second, the impulses unleashed by liberation theology. In both cases, the main obstacle was the Bible, but, already compromised by theological liberalism, these denominations deployed revisionist arguments to defuse any argument from Scripture. The strategies of biblical subversion also took two basic forms. The argument was proffered that either the Bible was misread by Christians for nearly 2,000 years or the Bible is just hopelessly mired in patriarchy and oppression and the biblical authors were flat wrong.

            Usually, the arguments went together. Comparing the Apostle Paul to the Rev. Norman Vincent Peale (a preacher of little theology but much positive thinking), Sen. Adlai Stevenson famously quipped, "I find Saint Paul appealing and Saint Peale appalling." Well, the theological liberals and feminists found St. Paul appalling. The LGBTQ theorists are in full agreement.

            The result has been the feminization of liberal Protestantism. Put bluntly, there are just not that many males left. Actually, there are not many people left in those churches. Liberal theology is the kiss of death for any church or denomination. Little remains but social justice activism and deferred maintenance.

            Among leftward-leaning evangelicals, the arguments of the day were slightly more tame, but they arrived at the same conclusion — the church has been wrong in restricting the teaching office of the church to men. Women must be called and ordained and placed in pulpits and invested with full and equal recognition of teaching authority. The small but influential left wing of the Southern Baptist Convention was enthusiastic about advancing women as pastors back in the 1970s, and by the 1980s the establishment "moderates" in the SBC became theoretically committed to women as pastors. The moderates had a great deal to say about their support for women in the pastorate, but the vast majority of their churches were (and remain) adamantly certain that their pastor should be a man. Prior to the Conservative Resurgence, the seminaries were highly supportive of women studying for the pastorate, but relatively few churches were actually open to the idea.

            In truth, the issue of women serving as pastors fueled the Conservative Resurgence in the SBC. The question was instantly clarifying. The divide over women serving in the pastorate served as a signal of the deeper divide over the authority and interpretation of the Bible. Simply put, the only way to affirm women serving in the pastoral role is to reject the authority and sufficiency of biblical texts such as 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2. There is more to the picture, but not less. Furthermore, the Christian church in virtually every tradition through nearly two millennia in almost every place on earth has understood these texts clearly. In most churches around the world, there is no question about these texts even now. Furthermore, there is the testimony of God-given differences in the roles of men and women in the church and in the home throughout the Bible. The pattern of revealed truth is not hard to follow.

            Southern Baptists codified the convictional issues as part of our confession of faith in the year 2000. The Baptist Faith & Message was revised to make clear that, "While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture." Again, the statement is quite clear, and that statement is part of the confessional foundation that allows Southern Baptist churches to cooperate in mission and ministry. Every single seminary professor teaching in our six seminaries is obligated to that teaching, and had better be clear about it. The same is true for every missionary and worker with the International Mission Board and the North American Mission Board — and for every SBC convention work. The BF&M is the summary of Baptist beliefs that define what it means to be a cooperating Southern Baptist and a church "in friendly cooperation with" the Convention.

            ....
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

              And the fight is on!

              (By the way, HELLO, Fellow Prude!!!)

              I'm old fashioned - a woman is not to be in authority over a man, so if this "teaching pastor" leads the women's group, I don't see it as a problem.
              But it never stops there --- Beth Moore, Paula White, Joyce Meyer....
              Hi right back, my dear brother fellow prude!



              That's exactly what I KNEW you would say! And I am fully in agreement!



              Here's an interesting article by Mohler...

              Women Pastors, Women Preachers, and the Looming Test of the Southern Baptist Convention

              "Behold, a little cloud like a man's hand is rising from the sea." That was the message the prophet Elijah heard from his servant. Then, "And in a little while the heavens grew black with clouds and wind, and there was a great rain."

              That's the way issues often arise. At first, there is only a small cloud. Soon thereafter, here comes the downpour. Well, here it comes.

              The issue of women serving as pastors and preachers in churches roiled the Southern Baptist Convention from the 1970s until the Conservative Resurgence in the Convention clarified the question conclusively in the Baptist Faith & Message revision of 2000. There never was a moment when more than a handful of women served as pastors of SBC churches, but the mainline Protestant denominations were rushing headlong into the ordination of women as pastors and (Episcopal) priests, driven by two major energies — first, the demands of second wave feminism and, second, the impulses unleashed by liberation theology. In both cases, the main obstacle was the Bible, but, already compromised by theological liberalism, these denominations deployed revisionist arguments to defuse any argument from Scripture. The strategies of biblical subversion also took two basic forms. The argument was proffered that either the Bible was misread by Christians for nearly 2,000 years or the Bible is just hopelessly mired in patriarchy and oppression and the biblical authors were flat wrong.

              Usually, the arguments went together. Comparing the Apostle Paul to the Rev. Norman Vincent Peale (a preacher of little theology but much positive thinking), Sen. Adlai Stevenson famously quipped, "I find Saint Paul appealing and Saint Peale appalling." Well, the theological liberals and feminists found St. Paul appalling. The LGBTQ theorists are in full agreement.

              The result has been the feminization of liberal Protestantism. Put bluntly, there are just not that many males left. Actually, there are not many people left in those churches. Liberal theology is the kiss of death for any church or denomination. Little remains but social justice activism and deferred maintenance.

              Among leftward-leaning evangelicals, the arguments of the day were slightly more tame, but they arrived at the same conclusion — the church has been wrong in restricting the teaching office of the church to men. Women must be called and ordained and placed in pulpits and invested with full and equal recognition of teaching authority. The small but influential left wing of the Southern Baptist Convention was enthusiastic about advancing women as pastors back in the 1970s, and by the 1980s the establishment "moderates" in the SBC became theoretically committed to women as pastors. The moderates had a great deal to say about their support for women in the pastorate, but the vast majority of their churches were (and remain) adamantly certain that their pastor should be a man. Prior to the Conservative Resurgence, the seminaries were highly supportive of women studying for the pastorate, but relatively few churches were actually open to the idea.

              In truth, the issue of women serving as pastors fueled the Conservative Resurgence in the SBC. The question was instantly clarifying. The divide over women serving in the pastorate served as a signal of the deeper divide over the authority and interpretation of the Bible. Simply put, the only way to affirm women serving in the pastoral role is to reject the authority and sufficiency of biblical texts such as 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2. There is more to the picture, but not less. Furthermore, the Christian church in virtually every tradition through nearly two millennia in almost every place on earth has understood these texts clearly. In most churches around the world, there is no question about these texts even now. Furthermore, there is the testimony of God-given differences in the roles of men and women in the church and in the home throughout the Bible. The pattern of revealed truth is not hard to follow.

              Southern Baptists codified the convictional issues as part of our confession of faith in the year 2000. The Baptist Faith & Message was revised to make clear that, "While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture." Again, the statement is quite clear, and that statement is part of the confessional foundation that allows Southern Baptist churches to cooperate in mission and ministry. Every single seminary professor teaching in our six seminaries is obligated to that teaching, and had better be clear about it. The same is true for every missionary and worker with the International Mission Board and the North American Mission Board — and for every SBC convention work. The BF&M is the summary of Baptist beliefs that define what it means to be a cooperating Southern Baptist and a church "in friendly cooperation with" the Convention.

              ....


              Wretched Radio (Todd Friel) had an interesting take on this.





              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                Hi right back, my dear brother fellow prude!



                That's exactly what I KNEW you would say! And I am fully in agreement!







                Wretched Radio (Todd Friel) had an interesting take on this.


                OK, watched the whole thing.

                A) Where'd you find this guy? His speaking style could drive me nuts if I had to listen very long.
                2) He seems to actually know a thing or two about the SBC and how it operates, unlike several who have posted here.
                c) He makes a lot of sense - and pretty much echoes my feelings about the local Church, and we don't really need the SBC if they drift
                iv) I think he oversimplifies the vote on the President of the SBC - there's more to it than just "one is more conservative"

                Actually, besides his annoying style, he's pretty spot on, though I'm not as pessimistic about the SBC as he seems to be.
                Ready to jump ship if it drifts left? You bet!
                Will I have even the slightest problem guiding my Church to jump ship? Not even a tiny bit.

                In fact, when I went to the Annual Meeting, it was "I'm leaving - convince me to stay".

                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                  OK, watched the whole thing.

                  A) Where'd you find this guy? His speaking style could drive me nuts if I had to listen very long.
                  2) He seems to actually know a thing or two about the SBC and how it operates, unlike several who have posted here.
                  c) He makes a lot of sense - and pretty much echoes my feelings about the local Church, and we don't really need the SBC if they drift
                  iv) I think he oversimplifies the vote on the President of the SBC - there's more to it than just "one is more conservative"

                  Actually, besides his annoying style, he's pretty spot on, though I'm not as pessimistic about the SBC as he seems to be.
                  Ready to jump ship if it drifts left? You bet!
                  Will I have even the slightest problem guiding my Church to jump ship? Not even a tiny bit.

                  In fact, when I went to the Annual Meeting, it was "I'm leaving - convince me to stay".
                  MelMak introduced us to Wretched. Yes, he is best taken in short bits, that's for sure. I believe he used to have a radio talk show. We find him right spot on most of the time, and he is certainly entertaining. His commercials are wonderful! You probably saw the one at the end of this video. MelMak posted this one a while back.


                  https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...s-inauguration

                  I don't know from which denomination he hails from. He keeps a close eye on WoF stuff and is a generally good apologist.



                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                    MelMak introduced us to Wretched. Yes, he is best taken in short bits, that's for sure. I believe he used to have a radio talk show. We find him right spot on most of the time, and he is certainly entertaining. His commercials are wonderful! You probably saw the one at the end of this video. MelMak posted this one a while back.


                    https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...s-inauguration

                    I don't know from which denomination he hails from. He keeps a close eye on WoF stuff and is a generally good apologist.
                    Interesting - I'll keep an eye out for him.

                    And I've done some checking on some of his claims, and, again - he seems spot on.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                      I don't know from which denomination he hails from. He keeps a close eye on WoF stuff and is a generally good apologist.
                      Can't really find any denominational ties, but he's certainly conservative, and a YEC.

                      The Statement of faith looks solid - http://wretched.org/about/


                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                        Can't really find any denominational ties, but he's certainly conservative, and a YEC.

                        The Statement of faith looks solid - http://wretched.org/about/

                        Yuh.


                        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                          the ordination of women as pastors and (Episcopal) priests, driven by two major energies — first, the demands of second wave feminism and, second, the impulses unleashed by liberation theology. In both cases, the main obstacle was the Bible, but, already compromised by theological liberalism, these denominations deployed revisionist arguments to defuse any argument from Scripture. The strategies of biblical subversion also took two basic forms. The argument was proffered that either the Bible was misread by Christians for nearly 2,000 years or the Bible is just hopelessly mired in patriarchy and oppression and the biblical authors were flat wrong.
                          Closer to 1700 years actually. Women in leadership roles was considered reasonable until after Koine Greek lost its place as the trade tongue of the Roman empire, and it took a lot longer to impose the restriction on the Eastern church.

                          Problems arise with a failure to consider the requisite qualifications for leadership and even membership of a congregation. More problems arise when the appointee is more interested in shoehorning scripture into ~ism theology than in working out precisely what the scriptures declare.

                          Usually, the arguments went together. Comparing the Apostle Paul to the Rev. Norman Vincent Peale (a preacher of little theology but much positive thinking), Sen. Adlai Stevenson famously quipped, "I find Saint Paul appealing and Saint Peale appalling." Well, the theological liberals and feminists found St. Paul appalling. The LGBTQ theorists are in full agreement.

                          The result has been the feminization of liberal Protestantism. Put bluntly, there are just not that many males left. Actually, there are not many people left in those churches. Liberal theology is the kiss of death for any church or denomination. Little remains but social justice activism and deferred maintenance.
                          Whether or not women are in the mix, the core remains the same. Dedication to God drives the direction of the church. Synchretism (regardless of its nature) won't contribute to long term health of a congregation.

                          Among leftward-leaning evangelicals, the arguments of the day were slightly more tame, but they arrived at the same conclusion — the church has been wrong in restricting the teaching office of the church to men. Women must be called and ordained and placed in pulpits and invested with full and equal recognition of teaching authority. The small but influential left wing of the Southern Baptist Convention was enthusiastic about advancing women as pastors back in the 1970s, and by the 1980s the establishment "moderates" in the SBC became theoretically committed to women as pastors. The moderates had a great deal to say about their support for women in the pastorate, but the vast majority of their churches were (and remain) adamantly certain that their pastor should be a man. Prior to the Conservative Resurgence, the seminaries were highly supportive of women studying for the pastorate, but relatively few churches were actually open to the idea.
                          Wesley ordained women without any internal problems arising, but for him, ordination was not predicated on whether the appointees (male or female) subscribed to ~ism theologies. The JBC likewise seemingly has no problem with women pastors: again JBC pastors (whether men or women) tend to be chosen on the basis of matters other than their subscription to ~ism theologies.

                          In truth, the issue of women serving as pastors fueled the Conservative Resurgence in the SBC. The question was instantly clarifying. The divide over women serving in the pastorate served as a signal of the deeper divide over the authority and interpretation of the Bible. Simply put, the only way to affirm women serving in the pastoral role is to reject the authority and sufficiency of biblical texts such as 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2. There is more to the picture, but not less. Furthermore, the Christian church in virtually every tradition through nearly two millennia in almost every place on earth has understood these texts clearly. In most churches around the world, there is no question about these texts even now. Furthermore, there is the testimony of God-given differences in the roles of men and women in the church and in the home throughout the Bible. The pattern of revealed truth is not hard to follow.
                          The underscored section is a major problem: scriptural authority is established on the basis of whether all relevant content points in the same direction, not on proof texts. On the issue of women in roles of authority, the plain readings of scripture do not point consistently in one direction.

                          When it comes to 1 Timothy there are challenges to its authenticity, but I have noticed that attempts to undermine the validity of various books seems to be more based on a desire to eliminate inconvenient comments than any real evidence. It is a practice that probably predates Luther.

                          Southern Baptists codified the convictional issues as part of our confession of faith in the year 2000. The Baptist Faith & Message was revised to make clear that, "While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture." Again, the statement is quite clear, and that statement is part of the confessional foundation that allows Southern Baptist churches to cooperate in mission and ministry. Every single seminary professor teaching in our six seminaries is obligated to that teaching, and had better be clear about it. The same is true for every missionary and worker with the International Mission Board and the North American Mission Board — and for every SBC convention work. The BF&M is the summary of Baptist beliefs that define what it means to be a cooperating Southern Baptist and a church "in friendly cooperation with" the Convention.
                          On the face of the foregoing paragraph, it seems that a break with prior practice occurred in 2000. Should it be assumed that the SBC no longer sends (or allows) women into the field to establish churches? I'm not sure whether women in the field was a policy in earlier times, or simply accession to what was being done.
                          Last edited by tabibito; 06-19-2022, 09:37 PM.
                          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Tab, I appreciate your scholarship, I really do. The ONLY restriction on the service of women is lead pastor of a church. They can still be missionaries, serve on committees, head mission organizations, head committees --- the chair person of the SBC Credentials Committee is a woman....

                            Several other posters have falsely (ignorance, I believe - not deception) painted this as banning women from all authority.

                            And, again, any autonomous church is free to have the leadership they feel best suits them, but the problem arises when they align themselves with an international organization that prohibits women from serving in the lead pastor role, and affirm the core beliefs that have been in effect for the previous 22 years.

                            I really don't care to argue the "can a woman be a pastor" question - until there is a change in the Baptist Faith & Message, it's understood that the position is "men only" in the lead pastor role.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Lemme address this part, separately...

                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              ...On the face of the foregoing paragraph, it seems that a break with prior practice occurred in 2000.
                              With regard to the SBC, it was perceived that the Convention was going in a liberal direction, and one of the major factors was the ordination of women, and churches having women as lead pastor. The clarification of 2000 was just that - a clarification of what was thought to have been understood in SBC Churches.

                              It seems that all major denominations who take this liberal left turn start with the elevation to women as leaders over men in the role of pastor, or bishop, or overseer.

                              Should it be assumed that the SBC no longer sends (or allows) women into the field to establish churches? I'm not sure whether women in the field was a policy in earlier times, or simply accession to what was being done.
                              I think it's pretty clear that the only restriction is women in the lead pastor role, so it was written with that in mind...

                              A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the two ordinances of Christ, governed by His laws, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.


                              Note that while identifying the Church's "officers" as pastors and deacons, there's not even a disqualification for a woman to be a deacon in that statement. It is only the office of pastor.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment

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