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  • #46
    Originally posted by Stoic View Post
    It's only an uncomfortable notion for those who have been led to believe that our rights are granted to us by our Creator.

    Also, Atheists aren't the only ones who believe that rights are granted by humans.
    On the practical level, surely it's indisputable that rights are granted by governments?

    Rights are enforced by the police and the courts. And they are enumerated in government documents.

    If any group of us believed that we had other rights, it wouldn't be very meaningful until those rights were recognized by a government authority (courts or legislation).

    There's the meta-question, of course, of what rights governments should grant, and why. But I think it's worth reminding the libertarian crowd that governments are the ones who in practice decide what the list of rights are and uphold them. In that sense governments are the creators and providers of freedom.

    And for those who would argue that the list of what rights governments should grant is religious in origin, I would point out that there is nothing in the Bible that resembles any list of rights even vaguely corresponding to modern lists of human rights. Good luck finding in the bible the right to a free press, or the right to own a gun, never mind the 10 pages of human rights in the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And good luck trying to determine from the bible if the right to an education or the right to healthcare should be rights or not.
    Last edited by Starlight; 06-17-2022, 07:33 PM.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      And for those who would argue that the list of what rights governments should grant is religious in origin, I would point out that there is nothing in the Bible that resembles any list of rights even vaguely corresponding to modern lists of human rights. Good luck finding in the bible the right to a free press, or the right to own a gun, never mind the 10 pages of human rights in the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And good luck trying to determine from the bible if the right to an education or the right to healthcare should be rights or not.
      Then those rights are no more than legal fictions, in your world. And I certainly don't believe there is a right to health care or education (if you mean other people paying for my health care and education), as far as self defense, freedom of speech or freedom of worship, yes I think you can make the case that the God of the Bible created men free to at least pursue those ideals. Of course it would all hang on the question of human worth in the end.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Stoic View Post
        It would be very dangerous to accept the taking away of personhood from any group, since then there would be nothing to prevent it from happening to your own group.
        The fact that you won't take away another group's personhood does nothing to prevent your own personhood from being taken away. The belief that it does is just superstition, like throwing salt you spilled over your shoulder to avoid bad luck.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

          All I know for sure is that there's nothing in the rule book that says an elephant can't pitch!

          https://ok.ru/video/1968889661995


          They like the blues as well!



          While horses seem to enjoy Bach!

          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
            The fact that you won't take away another group's personhood does nothing to prevent your own personhood from being taken away. The belief that it does is just superstition, like throwing salt you spilled over your shoulder to avoid bad luck.
            The best way to keep others from taking away your personhood is to provide an argument as to why they shouldn't. And an argument is what I gave.

            Of course, an argument might not be enough, but that's just the human condition.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              If you don't find the idea of no inherent rights uncomfortable, then I can only assume that you have not fully considered your position.

              Consider this: if, as you assert, rights are granted to you by other people, then those same people can simply take them away. In practical terms, genocidal dictators who declare that certain populations have no right to live and proceed to kill them have not actually done anything immoral.
              It's somewhat uncomfortable to think that someone could murder me, but it would be just as uncomfortable if I thought I had an inherent right to life.

              In your world, we have an inherent right to life, but there are still genocidal dictators.

              As to whether what genocidal dictators do is immoral, you don't need inherent rights to consider some things immoral.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                The best way to keep others from taking away your personhood is to provide an argument as to why they shouldn't. And an argument is what I gave.
                No, I think an AR15 would work best...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                  As to whether what genocidal dictators do is immoral, you don't need inherent rights to consider some things immoral.

                  Sure you do, if you want a rational argument for why it is immoral...
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by seer View Post

                    No, I think an AR15 would work best...
                    Well, that's for after they've taken away your personhood.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Sure you do, if you want a rational argument for why it is immoral...
                      A rational argument can be given whether or not there are inherent rights.

                      I understand that you think a rational argument based on inherent rights would be more convincing, but that would only be true to the extent that you can convince others that there are inherent rights.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                        The best way to keep others from taking away your personhood is to provide an argument as to why they shouldn't. And an argument is what I gave.

                        Of course, an argument might not be enough, but that's just the human condition.
                        The best way to keep others from taking away your personhood is to be more powerful than them. Talking has the most power over people who weren't particularly inclined to wipe you out in the first place.
                        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                          It's somewhat uncomfortable to think that someone could murder me, but it would be just as uncomfortable if I thought I had an inherent right to life.

                          In your world, we have an inherent right to life, but there are still genocidal dictators.

                          As to whether what genocidal dictators do is immoral, you don't need inherent rights to consider some things immoral.
                          If a human being has no inherent right to life, then what moral obligation do you have not to kill him?
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                            The best way to keep others from taking away your personhood is to be more powerful than them. Talking has the most power over people who weren't particularly inclined to wipe you out in the first place.
                            Since it's usually not one against one, but many against many, convincing a lot of people is a way to be more powerful. (Granted, it doesn't hurt to have a lot of powerful weapons.)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              If a human being has no inherent right to life, then what moral obligation do you have not to kill him?
                              You have the moral obligation imposed by your society and/or yourself.

                              If you have some other moral obligation not to kill him, what's to stop you from killing him anyway?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                                Well, that's for after they've taken away your personhood.
                                No, that is for preventing them from trying in the first place...
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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