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Are elephants people?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Stoic View Post

    I agree that the rights of human beings come from human beings. I'm not used to seeing that opinion coming from Christians, though.
    Rights are guarantees granted by human powers. Most Western Christians try to blend in some Enlightenment deism into their ideological pie which is one of the reasons why it's not a common opinion, esp among Americans.

    Originally posted by Stoic View Post

    The evil, IMHO, is in trying to take away personhood from someone who already has it.

    Elephants and fetuses are not in that category yet. Jews and Democrats are.
    Speaking of granting rights, granting "personhood" rights isn't an exception to the rule. There's no reason for Nazis to accept Jewish personhood just because some other group granted it to them, no different from any other rights that are given or taken by governments across history.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      We can't define what a woman is, and now some believe that elephants are persons. And two judges actually went along with that...

      [/COLOR]
      All I know for sure is that there's nothing in the rule book that says an elephant can't pitch!

      https://ok.ru/video/1968889661995
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

        All I know for sure is that there's nothing in the rule book that says an elephant can't pitch!

        https://ok.ru/video/1968889661995
        Old school fun!
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          In April 2018, the appeals court affirmed that animals cannot legally hold copyrights and expressed concern that PETA's motivations had been to promote their own interests rather than to protect the legal rights of animals.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

            All I know for sure is that there's nothing in the rule book that says an elephant can't pitch!

            https://ok.ru/video/1968889661995
            There would be right after someone tried it. Kind of like when the St. Louis Browns sent a player who only stood 3' 7" tall to the plate in the 50s. He had a strike zone of less than 2" high and was walked, replaced with a pinch runner and never played again. MLB was not amused. They voided his contract and struck his at bat from the record (that would later change).

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
              Speaking of granting rights, granting "personhood" rights isn't an exception to the rule. There's no reason for Nazis to accept Jewish personhood just because some other group granted it to them, no different from any other rights that are given or taken by governments across history.
              It would be very dangerous to accept the taking away of personhood from any group, since then there would be nothing to prevent it from happening to your own group.

              But that's exactly why I think we should be very careful about granting personhood to a group. In my mind, any downsides of that are going to be very hard to reverse.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                When I was a kid my mother took me to a Circus, somehow we got to walk out back where all the animals were - those poor elephants were just swaying back and forth in the hot sun with one leg chained to the ground. I felt so bad for them. It never left me...
                I really like my local zoo which is known for its large, natural-like enclousures. It's pretty much the prototype for humane zoos around the world.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                  I really like my local zoo which is known for its large, natural-like enclousures. It's pretty much the prototype for humane zoos around the world.
                  So it was a big prison...
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                    I agree that the rights of human beings come from human beings. I'm not used to seeing that opinion coming from Christians, though.
                    Our rights are granted to us by our Creator. Of course as an atheist who believes your "creator" was the random forces of nature, you are faced with the rather uncomfortable notion that you, in fact, have no inherent rights but only whatever privileges you are allowed based on the whims of others.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seer View Post

                      So it was a big prison...
                      Well, not exactly. I think it's safe to say that the animals at my local zoo are treated far better than a prisoner at the local jail.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        Our rights are granted to us by our Creator. Of course as an atheist who believes your "creator" was the random forces of nature, you are faced with the rather uncomfortable notion that you, in fact, have no inherent rights but only whatever privileges you are allowed based on the whims of others.
                        It's only an uncomfortable notion for those who have been led to believe that our rights are granted to us by our Creator.

                        Also, Atheists aren't the only ones who believe that rights are granted by humans.

                        https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...85#post1386785

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                          It's only an uncomfortable notion for those who have been led to believe that our rights are granted to us by our Creator.
                          If you don't find the idea of no inherent rights uncomfortable, then I can only assume that you have not fully considered your position.

                          Consider this: if, as you assert, rights are granted to you by other people, then those same people can simply take them away. In practical terms, genocidal dictators who declare that certain populations have no right to live and proceed to kill them have not actually done anything immoral.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by seer View Post

                            When I was a kid my mother took me to a Circus, somehow we got to walk out back where all the animals were - those poor elephants were just swaying back and forth in the hot sun with one leg chained to the ground. I felt so bad for them. It never left me...
                            Yeah, the Topeka Zoo near where I grew up was notorious for its poor treatment of elephants. A zoo that small doesn't have business having elephants; they need a lot more space than other animals. The Kansas City Zoo did much better, though the risk there was that patrons might not even see the elephants because they had so much space to roam. That's an acceptable risk IMO.
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                              If you don't find the idea of no inherent rights uncomfortable, then I can only assume that you have not fully considered your position.
                              I'm not sure if inherent rights are the way to go for Christians. More that we have inherent moral duties and responsibilities toward our fellow man.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seer View Post

                                I'm not sure if inherent rights are the way to go for Christians. More that we have inherent moral duties and responsibilities toward our fellow man.
                                Yes, that's certainly another component for the Christian to consider. It could even be argued that inherent moral duty is derived from inherent moral rights, for instance, God has granted you the right to life; therefore, I have a moral duty not to kill you. For the atheist, however, there can be no inherent rights, and thus no corresponding inherent moral duties.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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