Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Are elephants people?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Starlight View Post

    No, if moral duty existed as a brute fact of nature like the laws of physics, then atheists would believe them in the same sort of way they believe the laws of physics.
    Why couldn't moral duty to your fellow man be one aspect of your Moral Realism?

    If you want to talk to someone who bases their morality on what is advantageous to the individual, talk to seer. I would describe him as having a morality of maximum selfishness.
    Why would you say that? Based on what? Or are you fibbing about me?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post

      Why couldn't moral duty to your fellow man be one aspect of your Moral Realism?


      Why would you say that? Based on what? Or are you fibbing about me?
      The point that seems to have flown completely over Starlight's head is that that the existence of morality does not imply the existence of moral duty. Objective morality could, in theory, exist in a naturalistic universe purely as a brute fact of nature, but without an ultimate moral law giver, we would have no obligation to live morally.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

        The point that seems to have flown completely over Starlight's head is that that the existence of morality does not imply the existence of moral duty. Objective morality could, in theory, exist in a naturalistic universe purely as a brute fact of nature, but without an ultimate moral law giver, we would have no obligation to live morally.
        Star is hypocritical, he goes around claiming that he is a moral realist yet not once has he articulated what that means, how we discover such universal moral truths, why they are binding, nor could he even present one actual example of such a universal moral truth. Then he attacks our position.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          If it's merely an "opinion", then it is subjective, which brings us back to...

          ...you are free to decide for yourself what is and isn't permissible, but you have no obligation to prefer one behavior over another.
          That kind of depends on whose opinion you are talking about. Other people might feel that you are morally obligated to prefer one behavior over another. For that matter, you might feel that you are morally obligated to prefer one behavior over another.

          To everyone who has that opinion, not everything is morally permissible.

          For that matter, you're not even obligated to have a consistent ethic but can pick and choose whatever is most advantageous to you in the moment.
          See above.

          This is not only consistent with atheism, but it is the only conclusion available for the atheist.
          Any opinion is possible, but some opinions are a lot more common than others.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
            For that matter, you might feel that you are morally obligated to prefer one behavior over another.
            Do you feel morally obligated to treat your fellow man well?


            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              Do you feel morally obligated to treat your fellow man well?
              Yes, I do.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                That kind of depends on whose opinion you are talking about. Other people might feel that you are morally obligated to prefer one behavior over another. For that matter, you might feel that you are morally obligated to prefer one behavior over another.

                To everyone who has that opinion, not everything is morally permissible.


                See above.


                Any opinion is possible, but some opinions are a lot more common than others.
                It doesn't matter what anybody else's opinion is. If atheism is true, then you have no moral obligation to prefer one behavior over another. Bottom line.

                The fact that you intuitively reject this conclusion, that you instinctively know that moral obligation must exist, suggests that you should probably do some serious examination of your worldview.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                  Yes, I do.
                  Why? Just a matter of social conditioning?
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post

                    Why? Just a matter of social conditioning?
                    You think religion [particularly in many parts of the USA] is not a "matter of social conditioning"?
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      You think religion [particularly in many parts of the USA] is not a "matter of social conditioning"?
                      That tells us nothing about whether that religion is true or not. Yet if Stoic's sense of moral obligation is merely conventional then his moral beliefs are the result of a happy accident (time and place of birth).
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        It doesn't matter what anybody else's opinion is. If atheism is true, then you have no moral obligation to prefer one behavior over another. Bottom line.
                        Unless moral obligation itself is a matter of opinion.

                        The fact that you intuitively reject this conclusion, that you instinctively know that moral obligation must exist, suggests that you should probably do some serious examination of your worldview.
                        You are trying to mix your worldview with mine, and criticize the resultant mess as if it's my worldview.

                        This is exceedingly common when theists attempt to critique atheism.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post

                          Why? Just a matter of social conditioning?
                          Social conditioning, enlightened self-interest, moral reflection...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post

                            That tells us nothing about whether that religion is true or not.
                            Is all religion "true"? Or just yours?

                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Yet if Stoic's sense of moral obligation is merely conventional then his moral beliefs are the result of a happy accident (time and place of birth).
                            Human behaviour has evolved over a very long time and to some extent it is still culturally based.

                            What you and I might consider moral would be considered immoral in some societies. For example putting elderly parents into care-homes or nursing homes to be looked after by strangers would be deeply abhorrent because the care of the elderly is the concern of the children and/or the wider family.

                            Although we cannot know it has been suggested that small clans and groups of our early ancestors worked together in order to ensure the survival of that group, and that may, on occasion, have led to some behaviours and attitudes that neither you or I would now consider to be moral.

                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              Is all religion "true"? Or just yours?
                              What a stupid question, if I didn't think mine was the one true religion I would not be a Christian.

                              Human behaviour has evolved over a very long time and to some extent it is still culturally based.
                              And?

                              What you and I might consider moral would be considered immoral in some societies. For example putting elderly parents into care-homes or nursing homes to be looked after by strangers would be deeply abhorrent because the care of the elderly is the concern of the children and/or the wider family.
                              So?

                              Although we cannot know it has been suggested that small clans and groups of our early ancestors worked together in order to ensure the survival of that group, and that may, on occasion, have led to some behaviours and attitudes that neither you or I would now consider to be moral.
                              Again, so?

                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                                Social conditioning, enlightened self-interest, moral reflection...
                                Well moral reflection would be grounded in ones social conditioning.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Ronson, Yesterday, 11:30 AM
                                12 responses
                                44 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post NorrinRadd  
                                Started by Gondwanaland, Yesterday, 09:29 AM
                                1 response
                                17 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Ronson, Yesterday, 07:57 AM
                                3 responses
                                43 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by CivilDiscourse, Yesterday, 07:56 AM
                                14 responses
                                67 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by Darth Executor, 06-24-2022, 03:51 PM
                                5 responses
                                65 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post CivilDiscourse  
                                Working...
                                X