Texas School Slaughter...

[Cow Poke]

There's really no reason for anyone to believe this. This could just be them covering up the fact they were cowards and using a scapegoat as cover. Most folks that are that "itching" to respond just defy the orders and act, like the border cop apparently did.

The border cop who didn't immediately defy the order, but after some time, decided he couldn't wait?

You'd rather believe that all of the cops there were cowards except for the BORTAC guys? And they only "got courage" after nearly an hour and 12 minutes?

I have no reason to doubt the account that the "on scene commander" held up "the stack" because he believed it had transitioned into a "barricaded subject" situation.

And there will be school video and body cam footage to validate or decry the statements made by the Director of the Texas DPS --- and he's fully aware of that.

[KingsGambit]

There's really no reason for anyone to believe this. This could just be them covering up the fact they were cowards and using a scapegoat as cover. Most folks that are that "itching" to respond just defy the orders and act, like the border cop apparently did.

There's really no reason for anyone to believe you. You're just accusing people of lying with no evidence other than your own personal hunches. You wouldn't recognize that people might at first be reluctant to jeopardize their own careers?

[seanD]

There's really no reason for anyone to believe you. You're just accusing people of lying with no evidence other than your own personal hunches. You wouldn't recognize that people might at first be reluctant to jeopardize their own careers?

I couldn't care less if if anyone "believed me." People can make up their own minds based on the evidence and facts we have. I'm not telling anyone what to believe or not believe.

There's no reason for me to believe anything these corrupt folks tell me after what we've seen.

[seanD]

The border cop who didn't immediately defy the order, but after some time, decided he couldn't wait?

You'd rather believe that all of the cops there were cowards except for the BORTAC guys? And they only "got courage" after nearly an hour and 12 minutes?

I have no reason to doubt the account that the "on scene commander" held up "the stack" because he believed it had transitioned into a "barricaded subject" situation.

And there will be school video and body cam footage to validate or decry the statements made by the Director of the Texas DPS --- and he's fully aware of that.

Let's hope.

[Cow Poke]

There's really no reason for anyone to believe you. You're just accusing people of lying with no evidence other than your own personal hunches. You wouldn't recognize that people might at first be reluctant to jeopardize their own careers?

I think that's a key point --- the reluctance to jeopardize their own careers weighed against the need to do SOMETHING, causing them ultimately to ignore the "on scene commander" and get the job done.

[seanD]

I think that's a key point --- the reluctance to jeopardize their own careers weighed against the need to do SOMETHING, causing them ultimately to ignore the "on scene commander" and get the job done.

I just don't believe that. When you have an emotional response like that towards an urgent life and death matter you just act, especially if they were really hearing gunshots and pleading parents. Being stigmatized as a coward in a situation that has been given national attention leads to believe the likelihood he's lying to try and alleviate that reality. And there's nothing we've previously heard about this situation to indicate otherwise.

[Cow Poke]

More about the doctrine of "on scene commander", in the face of more experienced officers and commanders arriving....

As Shooting Continued, Officers Questioned Commander’s Decision to Wait

The article kinda looks at this from all angles, multiple opinions, but it's clear that this "on scene commander" having final authority is being questioned.

This incident will be the basis for consideration of changing the active shooter protocol to establish the most capable individual available as 'incident commander'.

[Cow Poke]

I just don't believe that. When you have an emotional response like that towards an urgent life and death matter you just act, especially if they were really hearing gunshots and pleading parents.

No, Sean, police departments are very para-military, and have a strict chain of command structure for a reason. They are specifically trained NOT to respond to emotional forces.

Brandon Judd, head of the Border Patrol Council, the agents’ union, said that in no case would Border Patrol agents have sought to assume command themselves.

“Every single training that is given, you have an incident commander, and that incident commander has the authority to make all the decisions,” Mr. Judd said on Saturday. That is what they are trained to do, he said. And when the agents arrive long after the situation has begun, he said, it is even more important that they follow the chain of command.

Being stigmatized as a coward in a situation that has been given national attention leads to believe the likelihood he's lying to try and alleviate that reality. And there's nothing we've previously heard about this situation to indicate otherwise.

You're looking at this from the benefit of hindsight. There was sheer chaos on the scene, and many outside had no idea what was going on inside. None of them knew, at the time, how this was going to end up.

[seanD]

The border cop who didn't immediately defy the order, but after some time, decided he couldn't wait?

You'd rather believe that all of the cops there were cowards except for the BORTAC guys? And they only "got courage" after nearly an hour and 12 minutes?

I have no reason to doubt the account that the "on scene commander" held up "the stack" because he believed it had transitioned into a "barricaded subject" situation.

And there will be school video and body cam footage to validate or decry the statements made by the Director of the Texas DPS --- and he's fully aware of that.

Btw, this doesn't seem to be correct. Looking at the timeline, the border patrol team arrived about an hour after the cops were already there, then breached the building about 35 minutes later.

[KingsGambit]

I believe there was a Supreme Court ruling that the police have no legal duty to protect citizens (which libertarian/conservative websites like to cite). I'm not sure what the state laws are in Texas, but I assume that otherwise this would prevent any legal accountability for any officers who did not act?

[Cow Poke]

Btw, this doesn't seem to be correct. Looking at the timeline, the border patrol team arrived about an hour after the cops were already there, then breached the building about 35 minutes later.

We're crossposting. I'll wait for you to respond to my other post, should you decide to do that.

[seanD]

No, Sean, police departments are very para-military, and have a strict chain of command structure for a reason. They are specifically trained NOT to respond to emotional forces.

Brandon Judd, head of the Border Patrol Council, the agents’ union, said that in no case would Border Patrol agents have sought to assume command themselves.

“Every single training that is given, you have an incident commander, and that incident commander has the authority to make all the decisions,” Mr. Judd said on Saturday. That is what they are trained to do, he said. And when the agents arrive long after the situation has begun, he said, it is even more important that they follow the chain of command.

You're looking at this from the benefit of hindsight. There was sheer chaos on the scene, and many outside had no idea what was going on inside. None of them knew, at the time, how this was going to end up.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not, but I'm not going to argue with you about it. You clearly do have a bias here and it's obvious.

[Cow Poke]

And this...

Part of the investigation into the shooting and the police response included whether Chief Arredondo knew about the 911 calls that were coming in, suggesting a possible breakdown in communications during the chaotic and deadly event, according to an official briefed on the inquiry, which is being led by the Texas Rangers.

Investigators were also looking into whether an attempt was made, during the standoff, to take incident command away from Chief Arredondo.

Gil Kerlikowske, a former Seattle police chief who later served as the head of U.S. Customs and Border Protection, said he was surprised to hear that the chief of the school district police force, which has only six officers, was the incident commander during the shooting.

Hopefully, with 911 transcripts, body cam footage, school video, and actual witness statements under oath, we'll know more about this.

[Cow Poke]

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not, but I'm not going to argue with you about it. You clearly do have a bias here and it's obvious.

Yes, I do have a bias, and I'm full aware of that, and I'm fully taking that into consideration as I look at all of the reporting and evidence.

[Cow Poke]

I believe there was a Supreme Court ruling that the police have no legal duty to protect citizens (which libertarian/conservative websites like to cite). I'm not sure what the state laws are in Texas, but I assume that otherwise this would prevent any legal accountability for any officers who did not act?

This has been all over the map with federal judges ruling one way, another federal judge ruling another way, and, yes, a SCOTUS ruling ---

In the cases DeShaney vs. Winnebago and Town of Castle Rock vs. Gonzales, the supreme court has ruled that police agencies are not obligated to provide protection of citizens. In other words, police are well within their rights to pick and choose when to intervene to protect the lives and property of others — even when a threat is apparent.

In this case, police would have "cover" because the recognized protocol is that they were acting under the command of the person in charge who established the "wait and see" scenario.