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  • Originally posted by myth View Post

    If he was still shooting while they were in barricaded subject mode, then things went very wrongly indeed.
    Yes, sir - and, as you know, there's always one person who is recognized as "on scene command", and it happened to be the Chief of the School District's Police Department. I'm waiting to hear some bio on him.

    The Commander of the Texas DPS has clearly stated that the "on scene commander" made a bad call.

    There were still children calling 911 from inside the classroom begging for police to be sent in, and one of them even said there were 9 children still alive.

    I'm wondering if they will rethink the "commander on the scene" scenario where somebody with a lot more training and experience arrives on scene.

    And, I meant to say this earlier to others --- this has been a pretty rigid protocol in the past -- there is always ONE PERSON who is designated as "on scene commander", and all officers, regardless of agency or affiliation, subject themselves to him. In this case, that turned out very badly.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by myth View Post

      I'm not sure I can find much fault for those on perimeter -- it's a necessary task.
      No, sorry, they're sitting on their thumbs for a flipping hour while kids are dying inside, and then have the gall to manhandle and assault parents who are demanding they do their damned jobs while kids were being shot and bleeding to death.

      Every officer there on the scene should not have a job after this, frankly.

      A mother literally drove from 40 miles away after hearing about the shooting, got there, got handcuffed for 'interfering with a police investigation', and got unhandcuffed a bit later, all before police went in. There is no excuse or handwaving that can be done here to defend the police. Zero.
      What I can find fault with is those inside if they were not actively trying to breach if gunshots were still being fired.
      There were indeed gunshoots being fired. In fact, they were audible in at least one of the 911 calls by the students in the classrooms, and in a later 911 call, the student explicitly says he was shooting.
      Last edited by Gondwanaland; 05-27-2022, 08:37 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

        looks like you're correct, I think I did some dodgy math, looking at CNN's timeline. And apparently (hadn't heard this before) the school resource officer heard about the shooting and drove to the school, but mistook a teacher further down as the suspect and in doing so drove right past the actual shooter before the shooter had even entered the building:
        I don't think it's your "dodgy math", Gondy --- the "facts" kept changing and evolving. And, yes, that last part has been confirmed. It's hard to imagine how they could have screwed this up any worse.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by myth View Post

          I'm not sure I can find much fault for those on perimeter -- it's a necessary task. What I can find fault with is those inside if they were not actively trying to breach if gunshots were still being fired.
          It's not just that he was still actively shooting (though, sporadically) -- it's that children were bleeding out while the response team was held up by this School Resource Officer Chief's incredibly bad assessment that it had turned from an active shooter situation to a barricaded subject situation.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
            ...
            There were indeed gunshoots being fired. In fact, they were audible in at least one of the 911 calls by the students in the classrooms, and in a later 911 call, the student explicitly says he was shooting.
            You have to wonder if this "on scene commander" was even communicating with dispatch.

            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
              No, sorry, they're sitting on their thumbs for a flipping hour while kids are dying inside, and then have the gall to manhandle and assault parents who are demanding they do their damned jobs.

              Every officer there on the scene should not have a job after this, frankly.

              A mother literally drove from 40 miles away after hearing about the shooting, got there, got handcuffed for 'interfering with a police investigation', and got unhandcuffed a bit later, all before police went in. There is no excuse or handwaving that can be done here to defend the police. Zero.
              You clearly have zero experience with this sort of thing. I have personally been on the scene of an active shooter, and I can tell you that it's total chaos. You do what you're told to do, and don't have specific information that would lead you to think to do otherwise. While search teams look for the shooter, you can't have every John Q. Public storming the building themselves and getting shot. So yes, perimeter control is important. It's also important to make sure the shooter doesn't escape. While doing perimeter duty, one totally manhandles people who disobey instructions, because it's the only way to gain or maintain control. And gaining and maintaining control is the whole game. It's what happens.

              That said, is this whole thing a terrible tragedy? Yes. Does it sound like it was grossly mishandled? Yes. Am I going to blame people who were following instructions while they (probably) believed the rest of the situation was being appropriately handled? No. I'll reserve my disdain and judgment for those who actually screwed up.
              Last edited by myth; 05-27-2022, 08:44 PM.
              "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                It's not just that he was still actively shooting (though, sporadically) -- it's that children were bleeding out while the response team was held up by this School Resource Officer Chief's incredibly bad assessment that it had turned from an active shooter situation to a barricaded subject situation.
                Yup.
                "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                Comment


                • Originally posted by myth View Post

                  You clearly have zero experience with this sort of thing. I have personally been on the scene of an active shooter, and I can tell you that it's total chaos. You do what you're told to do, and don't have specific information that would lead you to think to do otherwise. While search teams look for the shooter, you can't have every John Q. Public storming the building themselves and getting shot. So yes, perimeter control is important. It's also important to make sure the shooter doesn't escape. While doing perimeter duty, one totally manhandles people who disobey instructions. It's what happens.

                  That said, is this whole thing a terrible tragedy? Yes. Does it sound like it was grossly mishandled? Yes. Am I going to blame people who were following instructions while they (probably) believed the rest of the situation was being appropriately handled? No.
                  Which goes back to "the commander on the scene" --- every good officer honors the protocol that there is only ONE incident commander, and with all the chaos, you don't question or argue or launch into your own Plan B or D or Q or X.

                  Maybe that needs to change, in light of -- in this case - it was a Chief of a School District's police department - of SIX total officers.

                  You really have to wonder what experience and/or training he had in any of this.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                    You have to wonder if this "on scene commander" was even communicating with dispatch.
                    An excellent question. Granted, it doesn't excuse what happened. If he wasn't, dispatch should have informed him and he should have been in communication with them.
                    "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by myth View Post

                      Yup.
                      (by the way -- Don't tell anybody else, but I'm on a multi-jurisdictional CISM team that was on standby to go to Uvalde, and we were getting real time information.... about noon yesterday, our own incident commander kinda blew up because it became obvious that a BUNCH of the initial reporting from the scene was BOGUS, and, apparently, subject to change without notice. He (our incident commander) took us off the call list and issued a 'stand down' order to our team)
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by myth View Post

                        An excellent question. Granted, it doesn't excuse what happened. If he wasn't, dispatch should have informed him and he should have been in communication with them.
                        It appears that part of the problem (and I'll verify this later) is that he was "school police", not a "real cop", and should never have been point on this.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                          Which goes back to "the commander on the scene" --- every good officer honors the protocol that there is only ONE incident commander, and with all the chaos, you don't question or argue or launch into your own Plan B or D or Q or X.

                          Maybe that needs to change, in light of -- in this case - it was a Chief of a School District's police department - of SIX total officers.

                          You really have to wonder what experience and/or training he had in any of this.
                          I think the fault lies with those who failed to treat this appropriately. Any subordinates who failed to stuff that moron (the incident commander) into handcuffs and take over, and the head moron himself.

                          In such large and chaotic events, police rely on the rigid command structure to actually get things done when they don't have time to debate things with each other. It is most unfortunate it didn't work this time. But I can tell you, I've never once stood on perimeter and actually had a dang clue about what is going on inside somewhere. The information flow isn't that accurate or fast. And it's hard to feel the need to disobey your orders if you don't even understand what's happening.
                          "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by myth View Post

                            You clearly have zero experience with this sort of thing. I have personally been on the scene of an active shooter, and I can tell you that it's total chaos. You do what you're told to do, and don't have specific information that would lead you to think to do otherwise. While search teams look for the shooter, you can't have every John Q. Public storming the building themselves and getting shot. So yes, perimeter control is important. It's also important to make sure the shooter doesn't escape. While doing perimeter duty, one totally manhandles people who disobey instructions, because it's the only way to gain or maintain control. And gaining and maintaining control is the whole game. It's what happens.

                            That said, is this whole thing a terrible tragedy? Yes. Does it sound like it was grossly mishandled? Yes. Am I going to blame people who were following instructions while they (probably) believed the rest of the situation was being appropriately handled? No. I'll reserve my disdain and judgment for those who actually screwed up.
                            There wasn't any 'searching for the shooter'. They knew where he was, he was actively shooting throughout the hour they sat on their thumbs, and they did nothing. Stop trying to make excuses. If the police won't storm the building, it should be of no surprise that the public will. I've even heard one mother hopped the fence during this whole thing, and grabbed her daughter(s) from another classroom.

                            Every officer there needs to no longer have a badge. To a person. Especially the ones mandhandling and assaulting parents while their kids are bleeding out inside.
                            Last edited by Gondwanaland; 05-27-2022, 08:57 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by myth View Post

                              I think the fault lies with those who failed to treat this appropriately. Any subordinates who failed to stuff that moron (the incident commander) into handcuffs and take over, and the head moron himself.

                              In such large and chaotic events, police rely on the rigid command structure to actually get things done when they don't have time to debate things with each other. It is most unfortunate it didn't work this time. But I can tell you, I've never once stood on perimeter and actually had a dang clue about what is going on inside somewhere. The information flow isn't that accurate or fast. And it's hard to feel the need to disobey your orders if you don't even understand what's happening.
                              Again, there were SO MANY systemic failures here that it's hard to imagine how it could have been any worse --- from a teacher propping a door open, to the failure of the school to go into immediate lockdown after the initial shooting...

                              This will be studied for many years to come as an example of how NOT to handle an active shooter situation.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by myth View Post

                                If he was still shooting while they were in barricaded subject mode, then things went very wrongly indeed.
                                There is a report of the police telling the kids to shout out for help and when a girl did the shooter killed her.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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