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Texas School Slaughter...

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    You could cut off the hinges or remove the pins. Bad design.
    Meh... Good design for what it's for.

    The pins are "rivet ended", but, yes, if somebody were determined enough to get in that door, they could --- but they would have a really hard time doing it un-noticed, and we know that the type of person who does school shootings is always looking for soft targets.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      I'm all for firearms training courses.

      Nearly every time you see a reporter handle one on TV you can see the need.
      What I'm dead set against is gun registration...
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

        Meh... Good design for what it's for.

        The pins are "rivet ended", but, yes, if somebody were determined enough to get in that door, they could --- but they would have a really hard time doing it un-noticed, and we know that the type of person who does school shootings is always looking for soft targets.
        The former government "barrier penetration" expert I worked with (and taught me how to "bump" locks among other things) pointed out a couple of inobtrusive methods for bypassing such doors. Fortunately, while the equipment needed is widely available, most folks aren't carrying it around and wouldn't know that it could be used in this manner if they were.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

          Meh... Good design for what it's for.

          The pins are "rivet ended", but, yes, if somebody were determined enough to get in that door, they could --- but they would have a really hard time doing it un-noticed, and we know that the type of person who does school shootings is always looking for soft targets.
          I always get a kick at TV shows that show someone locked in a room with the hinges on their side and they can't get out. All they need to do is pry out the pins on the hinges and take off the door.


          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

            I always get a kick at TV shows that show someone locked in a room with the hinges on their side and they can't get out. All they need to do is pry out the pins on the hinges and take off the door.
            Usually inside a room with drywall too and a whole bunch of things that could be used to batter a door down even if the pins weren't removable -- or smash a hole through a wall.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Usually inside a room with drywall too and a whole bunch of things that could be used to batter a door down even if the pins weren't removable -- or smash a hole through a wall.
              Call that tunnel vision. For many people it's hard to remember (on the spot) how thick/thin the walls are. It's amazing how you can get so anchored on something that you can't think of alternatives.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Usually inside a room with drywall too and a whole bunch of things that could be used to batter a door down even if the pins weren't removable -- or smash a hole through a wall.
                Kool-Aid_20Man_large.jpg

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                  Call that tunnel vision. For many people it's hard to remember (on the spot) how thick/thin the walls are. It's amazing how you can get so anchored on something that you can't think of alternatives.
                  Fortunately for me the roguetech motto of "Can we smash it and what can we smash it with" is never far from my mind and I tend to instinctively look for alternatives.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • So, more questions...

                    This supposedly is a very tight-community of about 16,000 people, and this kid was widely known....

                    While the gun store legally sold him the gun, why didn't THAT guy make a phone call, "hey, Sheriff --- you're not gonna believe who just bought an semi-auto rifle and a boatload of ammo".

                    Then, again, there seems to be systematic failure in nearly every aspect of "school safety" here.

                    I'm wondering how the superintendent of schools will keep his job.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • So it sounds like the gunman roamed around outside for at least 12 minutes, before he found the unlocked door and entered without challenge (a change in the story police were telling earlier that officers had confronted him and shot at him). The police were called 2 minutes into that 12 minutes of roaming.

                      https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61604652

                      The gunman roamed outside the Uvalde school for 12 minutes before entering unchallenged, police said on Thursday.



                      That contradicted earlier statements which said the attacker had been confronted and shot at by an officer.



                      He killed 19 children and two teachers before he was shot dead 90 minutes after he arrived, police said.



                      That delay, combined with video footage showing frustrated parents being tackled and handcuffed by police while the gunman was still inside the school, has led to growing public anger and scrutiny of the early response.



                      It has also called into question claims by state Governor Greg Abbott, who earlier this week hailed the "quick response" of "valiant local officials" who he said had engaged the gunman before he entered the school. "They showed amazing courage by running toward gunfire," he said.



                      The latest timeline was given at a news conference by Texas Ranger Victor Escalon, who said several times that he wanted to "clear up" previous statements. He defended the police response and spoke of the emotional toll the shooting had taken on officers. "We're all hurting inside," he said.




                      But the timeline of events was still unclear after Thursday's briefing, and questions remain about how long it took officers to arrive and why the gunman, 18-year-old Salvador Ramos, was inside the school for more than an hour before he was killed - not by local officers - but by a tactical unit led by US border agents.



                      Mr Escalon said Ramos crashed his vehicle nearby at 11:28, with the first emergency call coming two minutes later as witnesses reported a man carrying a gun. Ramos then shot at members of the public, roamed the school premises, and entered freely through an unlocked door at 11:40.



                      Police arrived on site four minutes later, Mr Escalon said. But it is unclear how close they got to the gunman or whether they attempted to enter the classroom where the shooting took place.



                      Police initially said the officers were "inside making entry" and took cover after coming under heavy fire. This was revised on Thursday by Mr Escalon. "They [didn't] make entry immediately because of the gunfire they were receiving," he said.



                      At 12:45, the gunman was shot dead by a team led by an elite Border Patrol tactical unit. Mr Escalon played down previous statements by police that there had been ongoing exchanges of gunfire during the previous hour. "The majority of the gunfire was in the beginning," he told reporters.


                      Witnesses have said police were hesitant to confront the killer, and videos from the scene show officers gathered outside while being urged by desperate family members to storm the building immediately.



                      One mother told the Wall Street Journal that she was briefly handcuffed and accused of impeding a police investigation, after demanding - along with other parents - that officers enter the school. Angeli Rose Gomez said she saw one father thrown to the ground by an officer, another pepper-sprayed and a third who was tasered.



                      "The police were doing nothing," said Ms Gomez, who was eventually released. She said she jumped over the school fence and ran inside to rescue her two children. "They [the police] were just standing outside the fence. They weren't going in there or running anywhere."



                      "They say they rushed in," Javier Cazares, whose daughter Jacklyn was killed in the attack, told the Associated Press. "We didn't see that."



                      "A lot of us were arguing with the police, 'You all need to go in there. You all need to do your jobs'. Their response was, 'We can't do our jobs because you guys are interfering.'"


                      The apparent delay in entering the building deviates from guidance that became standard police practice after the 1999 Columbine High School massacre, which states that the first officers on the scene should do whatever they can to stop an attack without waiting for backup.





                      Mr Escalon refused to answer several questions about why the gunman had not been killed sooner. He said he had "taken all those questions into consideration" and would give an update later.



                      Investigators have found no indication the gunman had a history of mental illness or a criminal record. He legally purchased two AR-style rifles in the week before the attack, shortly after his 18th birthday.




                      When my UberEats driver has a better response time than the police, that's pretty sad. But highlights the fact that we cannot rely on, or count on, the police to come and save us.

                      And then the police literally HANDCUFFED one of the parents outside who was urging them to go inside and DO SOMETHING. "interfering with a police investigation", the usual excuse for police mistreatment of civilians nearby who are criticizing them or saying things they don't like. Another parent thrown to the ground by police, another tazed and yet another was pepper sprayed. Every officer involved in that should no longer have a badge or be allowed near any sort of law enforcement or security job. From the sounds of it, most of the police force there doesn't deserve to wear a badge.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                        So it sounds like the gunman roamed around outside for at least 12 minutes, before he found the unlocked door and entered without challenge (a change in the story police were telling earlier that officers had confronted him and shot at him). The police were called 2 minutes into that 12 minutes of roaming.
                        Yeah, that's been brought up earlier in the thread --- absolutely amazing -- and there's lots of conflict -- "the police were chasing him when he crashed" - "no, the police were NOT chasing him...."

                        I hope this gets turned over to the Texas Rangers to investigate, and they gather radio dispatch logs, body cam recordings, cell phone video.....

                        This really stinks to high heaven is a TERRIBLE poster child for the liberals' GUN CONTROL fanaticism.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • DPS Director is giving the timeline and answering questions --- this outta be good.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • 11:27 - video evidence - door was propped open by a teacher!
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • Okay. Wow. Oh, boy. This one has got me wanting to say a LOT of words that would get me banned.



                              So CNN interviewed the SPOKESMAN of the Texas Department of Public Safety, who tried to excuse the police for not going in, by saying, and I quote “At that point, if they proceeded any further not knowing where the suspect was at, they could’ve been shot, they could’ve been killed, and that gunman would have had an opportunity to kill other people inside that school.”

                              That one had me close to punching a wall when I saw this. Oh, is that right, spokesman of the DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY? The police could have been shot and the gunman would have been able to kill other people inside the school? Okay then, so what in the HELL do you think he was doing for the hour the police sat outside, afraid of being shot? Playing pat-a-cake? I better stop here before I throw my monitor across the room.

                              https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...shot-olivarez/

                              Police slow to engage with gunman because ‘they could’ve been shot,’ official says



                              Police were reluctant to immediately engage with the gunman who spent an hour inside the elementary school in Uvalde, Tex., where he killed 19 children and two adults because “they could’ve been shot,” a lieutenant with the Texas Department of Public Safety said in a CNN interview.


                              Law enforcement officers have faced mounting criticism from some parents who say police could have intervened sooner against 18-year-old Salvador Ramos in an effort from officers that was initially deemed by Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) as a “quick response.” Police who arrived at the school retreated as shots rang out, state authorities said Thursday, and it took an hour before a tactical unit led by federal Border Patrol agents went into a classroom and killed the gunman.


                              Texas Department of Public Safety spokesman Lt. Chris Olivarez defended the response in an interview Thursday with CNN’s Wolf Blitzer, who asked the lieutenant to walk him through “what exactly law enforcement was doing for 60 minutes or so while the shooter remained in that classroom killing those kids and teachers?”


                              Olivarez said that while the goal for law enforcement during active-shooter situations such as the one this week in Uvalde is to stop the killing and preserve life, officers did not initially know where Ramos was located when they were shot at.


                              “At that point, if they proceeded any further not knowing where the suspect was at, they could’ve been shot, they could’ve been killed, and that gunman would have had an opportunity to kill other people inside that school,” Olivarez said.


                              https://twitter.com/VAKruta/status/1529977770931113987


                              Olivarez’s remarks were criticized by those on both the political left and right and by parents, some of whom were tackled or handcuffed as they tried to enter the school on Tuesday to try to save their children.




                              A DPS spokesperson did not immediately respond to a request for comment early Friday. The DPS is expected to have a news briefing on Friday.



                              Standard law enforcement guidance since the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School in Colorado says officers should pursue shooters inside buildings without waiting for specialized backup. Since Columbine, many police departments have trained officers to go after an attacker as soon as possible, to minimize the number of teachers and children shot.

                              Before Columbine, older guidance often emphasized waiting for specially trained officers, such as a SWAT team. The speed and willingness of officers to pursue shooters into buildings has been called into question following other attacks in recent years, including the massacre at a high school in Parkland, Fla., in 2018.






                              While the Uvalde Police Department’s policy on responding to an active shooter is not publicly available, Olivarez said in an interview with The Washington Post on Thursday that “the protocol is to address the threat.”


                              “You go at the threat, you go at where the gunfire is at because you’re trying to stop the threat,” he said.
                              The lieutenant’s comments to CNN add to an incomplete — and evolving — explanation of what happened at Robb Elementary. Officials have offered varied timelines and explanations of the massacre and law enforcement’s response, and have also made sometimes inconsistent or contradictory announcements about key details involving the shooter.


                              Cellphone videos from outside Robb Elementary on Tuesday and witness accounts detail how parents were yelling at police, pleading with them to enter the school to protect their children. Javier Cazares, whose 9-year-old daughter, Jacklyn, was shot and killed, said parents “wanted to storm the building” when officers told them to move away from it.






                              Some ofthe videos posted to social media, which have been viewed millions of times, showed tearful parents pleading with officers in tactical gear — some carrying rifles or Tasers — to go inside the school and tackle the gunman, or allow them to do so themselves.


                              “You’re scared of getting shot?” one mother said, according to one video. “I’ll go in without a vest — I will!”



                              EDIT: But hey, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. After all:
                              FTvKM9kUsAENLI6?format=jpg&name=small.jpg
                              Last edited by Gondwanaland; 05-27-2022, 11:07 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                So, more questions...

                                This supposedly is a very tight-community of about 16,000 people, and this kid was widely known....

                                While the gun store legally sold him the gun, why didn't THAT guy make a phone call, "hey, Sheriff --- you're not gonna believe who just bought an semi-auto rifle and a boatload of ammo".
                                Particularly if what has been reported was his response to why he needed so much is true (something along the lines of "wait and see")



                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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