Texas School Slaughter...

[Gondwanaland]

We saw the Director of the DPS fully admit that there were a number of things that were reported that simply were not true. There is video footage from the school's security cameras, which is why we know the door was propped open by a teacher.

To me, it took a lot of courage for the DPS director to very clearly state that the School's Police Chief made a bad decision. He started getting things back on track by citing the 911 transcripts and video. And Governor Abbott is furious that he was put in the position of giving false information because of what he was told from the beginning.

I'm pretty confident that this will be very meticulously investigated and reported.

You (accidentally?) just brought some light to one of the major problems with police these days. The strength and cronyism of the wall of blue.

It's not "heroic" for a director of the Texas department if public safety to call out clearly egregiously bad decisiodecisia fellow officer. There should be nothing heroic about that. That's his duty or at least it should be. The fact it would be considered heroic to expose the wrongdoing of a fellow officer speaks to the corruption and CYA nonsense that is invovled in modern day policing.

No. Heroic is going into a school building with an active shooter (and not waiting an hour), and risking your life to save the kids. Not stating simple observable facts about malignantly poor decisions by fellow officers. The Wall of Bluevis incredibly disturbing and needs some serious tearing down, as your post demonstrates.

[Gondwanaland]

For what it's worth, the school police chief guy, for whatever reason, believed that the "active shooter" phase had ended, and they had plenty of time to wait out the gunman.

Obviously, he was dead wrong about that, but it's the decision he made, and, for a time, others allowed him to maintain control.

Well, was he not only not in contact with the dispatcher (if he was, I say string him up), but also not in contact with the (19?) Officers standing inside the hallway outside the classrooms who would have heard very clearly the ongoing shooting that can be heard in the 911 calls?

If he wasn't then thats pretty absurd (and one would think any of those officers inside would act when they heard those shots or at least go our to get in contact with the chief and tell him about the active shots)

If he was then did the officers then fail to report basic facts of the scene and not say anything about the shooting? Or did they report it and he still decided to tell them not to go in?

[Ronson]

There's really no reason for anyone to believe this. This could just be them covering up the fact they were cowards and using a scapegoat as cover. Most folks that are that "itching" to respond just defy the orders and act, like the border cop apparently did.

Not that many - not in that line of work. They were told to wait.

[Cow Poke]

The correlation is mass-shootings and gun sales, not anti-gun campaigns. The gun manufacturers profit from school shootings. This is the true nature of your support for gun rights. You are helping to perpetuate a very cruel positive feedback loop.

I'm so glad you're on THEIR side!

[Cow Poke]

You (accidentally?) just brought some light to one of the major problems with police these days. The strength and cronyism of the wall of blue.

Not accidental at all.

It's not "heroic" for a director of the Texas department if public safety to call out clearly egregiously bad decisiodecisia fellow officer.

In light of the "blue wall", it really is.

There should be nothing heroic about that. That's his duty or at least it should be. The fact it would be considered heroic to expose the wrongdoing of a fellow officer speaks to the corruption and CYA nonsense that is invovled in modern day policing.

I don't make the rules.

No. Heroic is going into a school building with an active shooter (and not waiting an hour), and risking your life to save the kids. Not stating simple observable facts about malignantly poor decisions by fellow officers. The Wall of Bluevis incredibly disturbing and needs some serious tearing down, as your post demonstrates.

The wall of blue is absolutely problematic in proper police work. It takes courage for a police officer to stand against it.

[Cow Poke]

Well, was he not only not in contact with the dispatcher (if he was, I say string him up), but also not in contact with the (19?) Officers standing inside the hallway outside the classrooms who would have heard very clearly the ongoing shooting that can be heard in the 911 calls?

If he wasn't then thats pretty absurd (and one would think any of those officers inside would act when they heard those shots or at least go our to get in contact with the chief and tell him about the active shots)

If he was then did the officers then fail to report basic facts of the scene and not say anything about the shooting? Or did they report it and he still decided to tell them not to go in?

Supposedly, the incident commander explained that the shots being fired were at them (by a barricaded subject), and he wrongly supposed that no children were alive.

I don't think you can even imagine how chaotic such a situation can be, and adrenaline pumping like crazy, and knowing full well you may be shot.

[Cow Poke]

Not that many - not in that line of work. They were told to wait.

Every aspect of police training revolves around 'chain of command', because it is very much a para-military organization.

This will obviously bring new focus on that power paradigm.

[Cow Poke]

You (accidentally?) just brought some light to one of the major problems with police these days. The strength and cronyism of the wall of blue.

Lemme take a second swing at this --- I have said all along that - in MY opinion - one of the BIGGEST problems with Police Departments these days is POLICE UNIONS -- protecting the bad cops at pretty much any cost. That's pretty much the fabric of "the blue wall" --- and I have CLEARLY been opposed to protecting bad cops - JUST LIKE I'm against the TEACHERS UNIONS protecting bad teachers.

It is a very entrenched system, and it DOES take courage for somebody to stand against it.

Unlike the "teacher union" situation, when a cop fails to support another cop, even in a bad situation, the cop fully realizes that his very LIFE may be in the hands of the cop he stood against or exposed.

[Ronson]

Every aspect of police training revolves around 'chain of command', because it is very much a para-military organization.

This will obviously bring new focus on that power paradigm.

There will be some precedents being set in Uvalde over this. Police just "obeying orders" vs. "taking the initiative". It may be difficult to fire an officer who was obeying orders, and it would end up in court. At the same time, I understand Uvalde policy for this type of situation was ignored, so an officer DISobeying orders and charging into the classroom would actually be following policy? What a mess.

Perhaps some of the problem here is that officers across the country think like a NIMBY. They don't picture themselves in a school-shooting situation so they don't know what to do. Personally, I tend to run these types of things through my mind beforehand so I have an idea how to react; so I'm not a deer in the headlights. There's no time to sit and sort out all the pros and cons while a critical situation is unfolding, it's best to have my mind already set on how to respond.

[Cow Poke]

There will be some precedents being set in Uvalde over this. Police just "obeying orders" vs. "taking the initiative". It may be difficult to fire an officer who was obeying orders, and it would end up in court. At the same time, I understand Uvalde policy for this type of situation was ignored, so an officer DISobeying orders and charging into the classroom would actually be following policy? What a mess.

Yeah - usually these types of incidents are over so fast that there's not this opportunity for questioning or possible mutiny.

Perhaps some of the problem here is that officers across the country think like a NIMBY. They don't picture themselves in a school-shooting situation so they don't know what to do. Personally, I tend to run these types of things through my mind beforehand so I have an idea how to react; so I'm not a deer in the headlights. There's no time to sit and sort out all the pros and cons while a critical situation is unfolding, it's best to have my mind already set on how to respond.

I can't speak for every department, but I know OUR department has active shooter training drills, even in the local churches, schools, and other places where there are multiple soft targets. I've trained with them, as Chaplain, and a member of the review board.

I think that most police officers realize that, if the situation presents itself, we go in and do what we have to do. I don't think any officer actually thought about - what if we are ready to do what we are trained to do, and told NOT to do it.

Yes, Ronson -- it's a mess.

[rogue06]

The correlation is mass-shootings and gun sales, not anti-gun campaigns. The gun manufacturers profit from school shootings. This is the true nature of your support for gun rights. You are helping to perpetuate a very cruel positive feedback loop.

The correlation is that every time the left starts talking about banning the sale of and the confiscation of firearms that gun sales skyrocket as a result.

Mr. Hell Yes we're going to take your AR-15.jpg0ebc646d2cf2e785be349c6af470dfeb--gun-humor-guns-and-ammo.jpg

Right after Mr. "Hell yes, we're going to take your AR-15s" made that statement sales of that rifle soared, but nothing like the
election of Obama which resulted in a spike of nearly 1 million firearm sales.

[Ronson]

Yeah - usually these types of incidents are over so fast that there's not this opportunity for questioning or possible mutiny.

I can't speak for every department, but I know OUR department has active shooter training drills, even in the local churches, schools, and other places where there are multiple soft targets. I've trained with them, as Chaplain, and a member of the review board.

I think that most police officers realize that, if the situation presents itself, we go in and do what we have to do. I don't think any officer actually thought about - what if we are ready to do what we are trained to do, and told NOT to do it.

Somewhat different circumstances, but there was an office rampage shooting in California some 15 years ago. I saw a photo layout of the floor where it happened and it was similar to where I worked at the time. So, I processed the event in my head had it happened at my office; escape or hide or attack - depending on where the shooter came in, how he was armed, where I was at the time, who all was present, etc. Just over and over. I feel I was prepared for that situation had it occurred. I wouldn't need to process much on the fly.

Of course, it's not possible for officers to anticipate every situation, but school shootings (in general) seems like an obvious one.

[Mountain Man]

The correlation is mass-shootings and gun sales, not anti-gun campaigns. The gun manufacturers profit from school shootings. This is the true nature of your support for gun rights. You are helping to perpetuate a very cruel positive feedback loop.

Correlation does not prove causation.

[myth]

You mentioned that there are "practical steps" to be taken to solve this. Now that we've firmly established (and I think agree) the fact that these mass shootings are unprecedented and profound in our history, I don't really see any practical steps of solving the shootings themselves, and that's even assuming the political right and left could actually agree on steps to stop it, which itself is impossible.

There are imperfect solutions that might somewhat mitigate it. The solution that was brought up earlier about armed teachers might mitigate children getting shot in some schools, but it certainly won't solve why young people are wigging out like this and becoming cold vicious murderers. Even in a pure fantasy world where the left is correct and a magical gun law stops the shootings, it still won't solve that issue either.

You mentioned mental health, but, like I said earlier, I highly doubt that would work for folks like Nikolas Cruz, in fact, might even exacerbate the situation if psych meds are a source of this erratic behavior. If social media is the issue, then mental health definitely won't solve anything.

I don't really see practical steps to solving either the shootings themselves or the why this is happening, and that's even if we assume there were no political barriers for us to get over in solving the former. Maybe prayer and repentance isn't as nutty as you make it sound like it is.

Two fronts: mental health and school security.

We need better access to mental health treatment, and we need more effective red flag laws. In my own state, the system is broken and even if someone like this school shooter was involuntarily committed, the system would have spat him out after a few days without actually trying to fix his underlying issues (because of money, frankly).

I'm not a big supporter of arming teachers, but I do support increasing school security. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has a lot of excellent suggestions. Stuff like single point of entry with an armed guard of some sort (SRO/security/whatever), metal detectors at the single point of entry, the receptionist with a panic button that triggers police notification and an alarm to put the school into lockdown. Randomized searches of students for weapons (since searching all would be just impractical). Ballistic resistant tint on the windows of classroom doors. Easily accessible master keys for police responding to a shooting. But you know, all this would require forethought, planning, and money. And most people would prefer to think "it won't happen here". Maybe we can't eliminate such school shootings, but we can make them less likely to happen and limit the body count when it does.

And the frustrating thing is, our governments could implement all of these steps without tackling the gun control issue. Whether or not we desire to see greater gun control in the US, we should admit that it's a difficult topic to get traction on and maybe we should work on the things more likely to garner bi-partisan support instead of doing nothing as children keep dying.

[Gondwanaland]

Not accidental at all.



In light of the "blue wall", it really is.



I don't make the rules.



The wall of blue is absolutely problematic in proper police work. It takes courage for a police officer to stand against it.

Agreed. That's a serious problem that something as basic as calling out misbehavior and malignant ineptitude by someone else in your field could be considered 'heroic'