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  • Originally posted by seanD View Post

    The "Australian argument" anti-gun advocates constantly go to has been debunked so many times, it's almost pointless to even keep doing it.
    Yup. I worked out a couple of years ago that the Australian experience cannot be mapped onto the American system. The start point is too thoroughly different.

    Different geography, different culture. Uniformed police here weren't armed until the late 70s (IIRC, maybe the early 80s); detectives were "armed" - shoulder holstered browning 22 pistols; under a suit jacket, of course. My one and only duty as "value escort" when I was a railway guard, I was issued the same model pistol (unloaded). The ammunition was issued separately in a packet wrapped and sealed all around with duct tape. I can't see any way that the gun could be loaded in under five minutes unless the guard had a box cutter.
    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      Yup. I worked out a couple of years ago that the Australian experience cannot be mapped onto the American system. The start point is too thoroughly different.

      Different geography, different culture. Uniformed police here weren't armed until the late 70s (IIRC, maybe the early 80s); detectives were "armed" - shoulder holstered browning 22 pistols; under a suit jacket, of course. My one and only duty as "value escort" when I was a railway guard, I was issued the same model pistol (unloaded). The ammunition was issued separately in a packet wrapped and sealed all around with duct tape. I can't see any way that the gun could be loaded in under five minutes unless the guard had a box cutter.
      Australia:
      - Population a mere fraction of the US.
      - Had only a fraction of guns per capita before the ban.
      - Not as multicultural.
      - Is an isolated country with no borders (as you pointed out above).
      - Doesn't have a second amendment.
      - Has to misrepresent crime stats to prove the ban was a success.
      "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seanD View Post

        Australia:
        - Population a mere fraction of the US.
        - Had only a fraction of guns per capita before the ban.
        - Not as multicultural.
        - Is an isolated country with no borders (as you pointed out above).
        - Doesn't have a second amendment.
        - Has to misrepresent crime stats to prove the ban was a success.
        Australia has 15% fatherless homes, compared to 30% in the US. I wonder if that makes a difference?
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post

          Australia has 15% fatherless homes, compared to 30% in the US. I wonder if that makes a difference?
          No doubt.
          "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seanD View Post

            Australia:
            - Population a mere fraction of the US.
            - Had only a fraction of guns per capita before the ban.
            - Not as multicultural.
            - Is an isolated country with no borders (as you pointed out above).
            - Doesn't have a second amendment.
            - Has to misrepresent crime stats to prove the ban was a success.
            Aside from the last, correct (and I'm not at all sure about the "not as multicultural"). Australia doesn't suppress statistics (it seems that gun opponents overseas do). People are still able to obtain gun permits but have to show just cause. Sometimes a gun is used to commit murder, and mass shootings are extremely rare but not unknown. And as I said, I can't see any way for Australia's approach to be viable in America.
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Aside from the last, correct (and I'm not at all sure about the "not as multicultural"). Australia doesn't suppress statistics (it seems that gun opponents overseas do). People are still able to obtain gun permits but have to show just cause. Sometimes a gun is used to commit murder, and mass shootings are extremely rare but not unknown. And as I said, I can't see any way for Australia's approach to be viable in America.
              I didn't say they "suppress" the stats, I said they misrepresent them. As Gond pointed out, they misrepresent the stats in the sense they only give it as a half-truth. Yes, gun murders were down, but the murders themselves weren't. This suggests criminals just find other ways to kill. Also, Alien pointed out gun deaths were already declining before the ban, something they also don't point out.
              "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

              Comment


              • A”good man with a gun” doesn’t work. No, I think you need to go after the gun manufacturers and those who protect them.
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Alien View Post

                  https://www.sciencealert.com/20-year...ding-they-work


                  The study found there have been no fatal mass shootings since April 1996 - despite experiencing one every two to three years in the decades leading up to the changes. There's also been an overall drop in the number of people killed by guns.



                  The researchers found that there had been 13 fatal mass shootings in the 18 years prior to the new laws being rolled out, killing 104 people. But in the 20 years since, there have been none.



                  And while the rate of total firearm deaths was already in decline before the gun control reform, since then, it's dropped almost twice as fast. Gun-related suicides have followed a similar trend.


                  Read the whole thing to see that the drop in firearm deaths was already going down, so it can't be definitively proven that the new regulations were totally the cause, but it seems likely.
                  Mass killings with firearms decreased, but mass killings overall stayed at the same level. The psychopaths simply found other ways to kill their victims.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by dirtfloor View Post
                    A”good man with a gun” doesn’t work. No, I think you need to go after the gun manufacturers and those who protect them.
                    If you've bothered to keep up with this story, you would know how badly the school and the police bungled things. Arguably, there were no good guys with guns on the scene. It was dereliction of duty.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • I think it was a CBS reporter (national not local) who described it as "very clearly staged" publicity stunt.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seanD View Post

                        I still can't fathom how he thinks these antics will work in Texas. Maybe it's not an act after all; maybe he really is just purely delusional.
                        Given the unlikelihood that Beto will be successful in his most recent bid, maybe he's angling for an appointment to a national position. Didn't old Joe once promise him one?

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          Yup. I worked out a couple of years ago that the Australian experience cannot be mapped onto the American system. The start point is too thoroughly different.

                          Different geography, different culture. Uniformed police here weren't armed until the late 70s (IIRC, maybe the early 80s); detectives were "armed" - shoulder holstered browning 22 pistols; under a suit jacket, of course. My one and only duty as "value escort" when I was a railway guard, I was issued the same model pistol (unloaded). The ammunition was issued separately in a packet wrapped and sealed all around with duct tape. I can't see any way that the gun could be loaded in under five minutes unless the guard had a box cutter.
                          Use different bullets.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                            If you've bothered to keep up with this story, you would know how badly the school and the police bungled things. Arguably, there were no good guys with guns on the scene. It was dereliction of duty.
                            Good discussion about the legal stuff in OA599.
                            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                            “not all there” - you know who you are

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                              Mass killings with firearms decreased, but mass killings overall stayed at the same level. The psychopaths simply found other ways to kill their victims.
                              I don't find stats that support the argument.
                              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                Aside from the last, correct (and I'm not at all sure about the "not as multicultural"). Australia doesn't suppress statistics (it seems that gun opponents overseas do). People are still able to obtain gun permits but have to show just cause. Sometimes a gun is used to commit murder, and mass shootings are extremely rare but not unknown. And as I said, I can't see any way for Australia's approach to be viable in America.
                                That sounds a lot like what we see in cities like NYC, Chicago, Washington D.C. ... Guns are banned but you can get one if you can show just cause.

                                Ask those living there how that's working out for them. If you are an average city and want to buy a firearm to protect your home or maybe that business that's been robbed twice in the last three years, your chances of success are very small. I'm not saying it never happens, but you have to be extraordinarily lucky or connected. If those sort of people have a firearm the chances are good they don't have a permit.

                                OTOH, relatives, friends, major contributors and business associates of politicians, as well as celebrities (those without disqualifying arrest records) don't have to worry. It appears that if you live in a high rise with security you are likely to have more just cause for needing one to protect your home than if you live in a less affluent area with a significantly higher crime rate.

                                And given these gun-free meccas typically have much higher rates of gun-related violence than areas where the laws aren't as restrictive, that kind of let's you know how well those laws work.
                                Last edited by rogue06; 05-27-2022, 05:37 PM.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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