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Southern Baptist leaders covered up sex abuse, kept secret database, report says
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThe wise old black woman stereotype that Hollyweird adores?
https://youtu.be/mIl-XY9t_LwThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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It seems that the annual General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) had a similar issue but with a twist
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIt seems that the annual General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) had a similar issue but with a twist
Fortunately, the SBC is working hard to honor the tradition of the FULL autonomy of the local church, which is why they have established a "victims fund", but no help whatsoever to the accused minister, as that would be the jurisdiction of the local church or local law enforcement, and the SBC is not a party (Unless it's a denominational employee).The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Juvenal View PostThe supremacy of creator gods is pretty much an Abrahamic thing. Most creator gods get offed by their offspring before hitting the rinse and repeat cycles. There’s evidence Yahweh did that to El before taking over his throne and his principal concubine, Asherah.
I think we’ve discussed this before. There are snippets of pre-Abrahamic tradition that check out, like the worship of Tammuz, known as Dumuzi in the earlier tradition. The dismissal of Hagar after bearing his son is straight out of the Code of Lipit-Ishtar.
.[/FONT]§27 If a man's wife has not borne him children but a harlot from the public square has borne him children, he shall provide grain, oil and clothing for that harlot. The children which the harlot has borne him shall be his heirs, and as long as his wife lives the harlot shall not live in the house with the wife.
Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIt seems that the annual General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) had a similar issue but with a twist
[box]“Many of the people originally handling the case were colleagues and close friends of his,” she said, adding that he was able to be involved in his own case while, as a woman, she could not participate in deliberations restricted to church officers.
...
Because churches are elder-led and all PCA elders are men, only men are involved in the decisions about complaints of abuse within a presbytery.]/box]Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThe first and third statements here appear to be at odds.
.The supremacy of creator gods is pretty much an Abrahamic thing. Most creator gods get offed by their offspring before hitting the rinse and repeat cycles. There’s evidence Yahweh did that to El before taking over his throne and his principal concubine, Asherah.
The series of Mesopotamian pantheons eventually linked to Yahweh all included creator gods. This is the tradition referenced when Yahweh tells the soon-to-beome Israelites he was once known to them as El, the highest of the El, El Shaddai, and as a personification of his divine council, the Elohim.
As reflected in the first of the ten commandments, members of these pantheons were worshipped separately, contradicting the supremacy granted to Yahweh and his more successful incarnations as the supreme God of Christianity and the Allah of Islam.
The tension between the first and third statements is in part due to a bridging statement lost on the cutting-room floor between the second and third statements.
While some of these creator gods were explicitly slain, the more common form of execution was the piece-wise theft of their defining aspects in a tradition that goes back to the dawn of history with the stealing of the divine mes by Inanna from Enki. Blame it on vanity. I couldn’t pass up the chance for a phrase like “offed by their offspring.’
It’s not like I wrote them out of history for failing to pay their temple tax.
But when I speak of the supremacy granted to Yahweh, I’m speaking of later incarnations of the earlier “Yahweh and his Asherah” depicted in the temples of the early Israelites. There’s no archaeological evidence for a monotheistic Yahweh before the Babylonian exile. In contrast, none of the Yahwehs worshipped by today’s principal Abrahamic traditions had a wife.
"Straight out" is over-stating things a bit, methinks. Hagar was not a harlot, and was living with Sarah until Isaac was weaned (and Isaac was born about 14 years after Ishmael). Further, Abraham's heir was Isaac, not Ishmael.
Hagar was the mother of the firstborn son of Abraham — that is, Abram before theophoric elements were added to Sarai to create Sarah, to Abram to create Abraham, and even to YHW to create YHWH and complete the cycle. That’s what it says here.
But who was Hagar actually.
We can’t really know, but the texts provide insight into both the early Israelite tradition and the traditions with which they were in competition. If they mentioned her as a servant who left the household, we can assume that was to push back against another tradition that portrayed her differently. Ideas come to mind.
Imagine if Hagar was simply his first wife. And she had a kid. So Abram had a second wife and Hagar learned to share. And then the second wife had a kid and she wasn’t into sharing.
As descendants of Abraham’s second-born son, what better way for the heirs of Isaac to answer competing claims from descendants of his first than writing up Hagar as Sarah’s servant, and less than a servant, a slave.
Cue the code of Lipit-Ishtar.
.§25 If a man married his wife and she bore him children and those children are living, and a slave also bore children for her master but the father granted freedom to the slave and her children, the children of the slave shall not divide the estate with the children of their former master.
So she was a slave, and her children couldn’t inherit, so long as she and her children were freed. So why was Sarah worried about her son’s inheritance. As a first wife, that shouldn’t have been Sarah’s worry. But if Hagar wasn’t a slave, and was actually a first wife, things make more sense. In that case, Hagar had to go. But how could she be driven out.
Cue Genesis 21:10.
.… and she said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.”
Cue the code of Ur-Nammu (page 20).
.¶ 25. If a man's slave-woman, comparing herself to her mistress, speaks insolently to her, her mouth shall be scoured with 1 quart of salt.
Note the original text is translated by Roth as “If a slave woman curses someone acting with the authority of her mistress, they shall scour her mouth with one sila of salt.” There’s room for interpretation here.
But in any case, this, by the way, is where I went wrong. I knew these ancient law codes, and that they spoke of conflict between a slave and her mistress, and of inheritance, but collectively, not specifically. Somehow I’d conflated them into support for the law code of Ur-Nammu speaking of the inheritance of the children of an insolent slave. And in so doing, created a direct link between the historical Ur III and Ur of the Chaldees, as described in the Bible.
Fortunately I looked it up and found my errors. But I’d long since spoken to tabibito about the reliability across a larger time span of the Israeli sacred texts related to the Mesopotamian tradition in contrast to tales coming from the later Egyptian traditions, based in part on this example. Worse, he’d taken special note of it. But if I was wrong, he was then wrong for believing me. Cue me, mortified.
Again, freed slaves might not inherit, but there was no law for driving Hagar out, just for washing her mouth out with salt. But if Hagar was even less than a freed slave, if she was a strip of woman-shaped meat serving the sexual desires of the man who bought her, if she was no more than a harlot, then §27 of Lipit-Ishtar could come in handy.
And so Isaac supplanted Ishmael.
Certainly the writers would want to tread carefully before they set up a precedent for Isaac’s kids to follow.
Nah, that’d never happen.
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Originally posted by Juvenal View PostFortunately I looked it up and found my errors. But I’d long since spoken to tabibito about the reliability across a larger time span of the Israeli sacred texts related to the Mesopotamian tradition in contrast to tales coming from the later Egyptian traditions, based in part on this example. Worse, he’d taken special note of it. But if I was wrong, he was then wrong for believing me. Cue me, mortified.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostI've been trying to trace this one to put it in context, but without success.
As best I recall …
You’d mentioned something along the lines of your usual position that you don’t credit historical references prior to Moses, and possibly not much of the Mosaic tradition as well. I was substantially in agreement, but objected that there were reliable, or at least illuminating accounts from the Abrahamic hence Mesopotamian hence chronologically earlier tradition that argued for separating out the Egyptian traditions and considering them separately from the Mesopotamian. I cited, as here, both the Dumuzi aka Tammuz references and the harmony between the actions of Abraham and the Law Code of Ur Nammu.
That last was wrong, as detailed above.
A better argument can be made for harmony with the Law Code of Lipit-Ishtar, again, as above.
If I could link Abraham to Ur Nammu, I could comfortably place the origin of his earliest tales, including the story of Hagar and Ishmael, inside Ur III and the neo-Sumerian period from 2112 BCE to 2004 BCE according to the middle chronology, or shortly after its end. But that’s not going to happen now. If Lipit-Ishtar was more relevant, then the timeline shifts into the Isin-Larsa period bringing the stories forward perhaps 150 years.
Another century and we’re looking instead to the code of Hammurabi and the first Babylonian empire. At that point, the linkage would break entirely.
I’m arguing here that the shift to Isin-Larsa can still be harmonized with an origin for Abraham inside Ur III. First, because Lipit-Ishtar is far closer in its fines to Ur-Nammu than to the significantly harsher penalties of Hammurabi, echoed in the Mosaic law. Next, because its principal religious template undergirding the law had not yet shifted from Sumerian to Babylonian. Together, because the proximity in time, culture and religion argue for a continuity in legal traditions as well, and because the recorded codes must have reflected a much wider jurisprudence given the ubiquity of legal documents uncovered from the period and to the acknowledgment of wide-spread use of contracts inside the codes themselves.
If I can put Abraham inside Ur III, I can argue for historical relevance of the stories associated with him in the Bible. I can’t pretend a similar argument for the historicity of the Mosaic stories. Perhaps the most iconic of these, Moses’ birth narrative, is suspiciously similar to the birth narrative of Sargon, which is, ironically, both Mesopotamian rather than Egyptian and within the Akkadian empire, preceding even the neo-Sumerian period of Ur III.
Elsewhere, I’ve argued the Exodus was not that of the Jews from Egypt, but instead of the Egyptians from the lands that became early Israel. The archaeological evidence of the population of early Israel cannot be reconciled with even a fraction of the population accounted for returning from Egypt in Exodus. The religious tradition of the supposed exiles is as consistent with Ugarit as it is inconsistent with Egypt.
______
I don’t want anyone to think I’m anything more than a duffer here. I am an active researcher, but in mathematics presented for publication in mathematical journals whose names would require explanation for the general population even before we consider the esoteric differences between, say, work one would submit to the Journal of Combinatorics, series A, and the Journal of Combinatorics, series B.
I’m barely an amateur hobbyist in the Ancient Near East. I have a handful of books, maybe a dozen or so, that I’ve read with rebuttable competence. If anything I write about ancient Israel and the surrounding cultures stirs interest, go find an actual academic studying these fields to get the stories straight. I understand that most folks here take a religious interest in these topics that are for me, little more than idle curiosity. I read and I ask questions, mostly to myself, most of which will remain forever unanswered.
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Returning to the OP, DOJ gets involved.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostReturning to the OP, DOJ gets involved.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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The article seems to insinuate that the investigation is politically motivated.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThe article seems to insinuate that the investigation is politically motivated.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Yeah, it gets ugly.
You wou;d think that someone would have known Luke 12:3 and the many verses similar to it."For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThe article seems to insinuate that the investigation is politically motivated.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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