Southern Baptist leaders covered up sex abuse, kept secret database, report says

[NorrinRadd]

...in your opinion. Nowhere within Scripture itself does it say that only Scripture is inspired.

True. But I was speaking as a Protestant reproving a fellow Protestant. We both recognize only the 66-book canon as "inspired."

This is a dangerously wrong-headed argument. Love does not invalidate the "Law and Prophets" part.

I frankly find Scripture to be inconsistent on this point. Whatever is the balanced understanding, I maintain that there is enough uncertainty to invalidate his usage of the Two Great Commandments.

[NorrinRadd]

Prosecuting women who get abortions isn't "ultraconservative", it's the standard pro-life position. The fact that the pro-life movement has been invaded by feminists who want to blame abortions on men and pretend every woman who gets an abortion is a victim is a different issue altogether.

No, it has not been the "standard pro-life position" in the 42 years I've been a believer. At one time it was somewhat less lunatic fringe than it is now.

[Darth Executor]

No, it has not been the "standard pro-life position" in the 42 years I've been a believer.

Yeah I don't believe you.

[Darth Executor]

Not sure what definition of "standard" you're using here. It might be logically consistent but it's certainly not common.

I debated the issue endlessly for years, and can't remember ever running into someone who thought only the abortionists should be charged with crimes. I only ran into these people after Trump said the obvious and he started getting bashed by "pro-life" activists for "blaming the victim" (lol) but that was fairly recently, well into the social media era.

Maybe the issue was viewed differently in Hicksville than it is among the cognitive elite?

Still, find it hard to believe the former is more feminist than the latter.

[tabibito]

Given CP's reasonable objections, my response is over here.

[tabibito]

I frankly find Scripture to be inconsistent on this point. Whatever is the balanced understanding, I maintain that there is enough uncertainty to invalidate his usage of the Two Great Commandments.

Resolution of the conflict is available through considering whether a person acting in love will violate the commandments, though there is wriggle room available. Also note that the law and the prophets (i.e. the Old Covenant) stood only until ... Luke 16:16. Some of the details of how all that works are explained in Hebrews 8, with further exposition also provided elsewhere in Hebrews. The provisions of both the Old and New Covenants are termed laws.

[Gondwanaland]

I debated the issue endlessly for years, and can't remember ever running into someone who thought only the abortionists should be charged with crimes. I only ran into these people after Trump said the obvious and he started getting bashed by "pro-life" activists for "blaming the victim" (lol) but that was fairly recently, well into the social media era.

Maybe the issue was viewed differently in Hicksville than it is among the cognitive elite?

Still, find it hard to believe the former is more feminist than the latter.

Yeah sorry dude, but I've been debating abortion since the 90s on Usenet. That's not even slightly a remotely accurate depiction of the overwhelming majority of pro-lifers. I can count on maybe two hands in the past roughtly 3 decades where I've run into an anti-abortion person arguing that women should be charged with murder.

[Gondwanaland]

Not sure what definition of "standard" you're using here. It might be logically consistent but it's certainly not common.

Sounds like ole darth has struck upon a strawman.

[NorrinRadd]

Sounds like ole darth has struck upon a strawman.

It is conceivable -- barely -- that he commonly runs in such extremist circles that he views such ideas as "standard."

[NorrinRadd]

Resolution of the conflict is available through considering whether a person acting in love will violate the commandments, though there is wriggle room available. Also note that the law and the prophets (i.e. the Old Covenant) stood only until ... Luke 16:16. Some of the details of how all that works are explained in Hebrews 8, with further exposition also provided elsewhere in Hebrews. The provisions of both the Old and New Covenants are termed laws.

I'm sort of inclined to pursue this, but it would take the discussion on yet ANOTHER tangent.

So, maybe some other time or thread.

[rogue06]

Yeah sorry dude, but I've been debating abortion since the 90s on Usenet. That's not even slightly a remotely accurate depiction of the overwhelming majority of pro-lifers. I can count on maybe two hands in the past roughtly 3 decades where I've run into an anti-abortion person arguing that women should be charged with murder.

When Trump floated a trial balloon about prosecuting the women who had an abortion it was shot down so fast that I doubt he even had time to release it. The response was overwhelmingly negative.

[Cow Poke]

Yeah sorry dude, but I've been debating abortion since the 90s on Usenet. That's not even slightly a remotely accurate depiction of the overwhelming majority of pro-lifers. I can count on maybe two hands in the past roughtly 3 decades where I've run into an anti-abortion person arguing that women should be charged with murder.

That.

[Cow Poke]

Still looking for any media coverage of the expected explosion [and subsequent fizzle] at the SBC Annual Meeting dealing with the Sexual Abuse Task Force, its report, and its overwhelming acceptance.

All I found "new" was a June 10 update from the BaptistMessenger about the Task Force modifying its recommendation, dealing with the fact that the SBC is not a "top -down" organization, and we have to be very careful about telling 100% fully autonomous Churches how to do business.

One clarification is that those investigations will be launched by the local church or other Baptist body, rather than giving the impression of a top-down approach. Churches or groups requiring financial assistance to hire an outside firm will be able to apply for grants that will be limited to funding.

The changes also note the potential situation where an abuse survivor requests a third-party investigation but a church or Baptist body refuses to cooperate. That can result in the church being submitted to the Credentials Committee for consideration of disfellowshipping.

[Darth Executor]

It is conceivable -- barely -- that he commonly runs in such extremist circles that he views such ideas as "standard."

tweb and gamefaqs were my main "extremist circles"

[Juvenal]

Given CP's reasonable objections, my response is over here.

Thanks, but I’ll be continuing my responses here.

This thread was started by Gondwanaland. If he thinks any of these side discussions belong elsewhere, I’m sure he’ll let us know. I generally address a number of related topics in my posts, and this one was no exception. I’m not keen on splitting apart posts that contain something or other that offends a bloated Texas preacher to appease his overweening need to be the biggest ripple in turd pond.

Handwaving? It was clear enough from your own post that Warren was arguing against being bounced by the SBC for ordaining women. I was addressing the points that he made in his own defence. Where is the lack of clarity? If I had been addressing issues other than those you had raised, I would have declared the fact.

That’s some clarification at least. But not enough to explain why all of your responses have so far been about justifications for the ordination of women. The inference is that Warren was arguing for the ordination of women.

I went ahead and found a video of his full remarks and listened to it for the first time yesterday.

His remarks were not in defense of ordaining women.

As it turns out, the synopsis included in the WaPo and Times stories on the conventions were reasonably accurate. His remarks were an appeal to Southern Baptists to set secondary issues aside in order to work together in a dark time. Prefaced, intermediated, and suffixed with an extended, valedictory humble brag about the number of churches planted and pastors he helped train.

He did begin by saying he wasn’t going to defend himself — with an unspoken subtext that he was referring to Saddleback’s decision to ordain women — before going on to ask anyone interested to write him privately so he could defend his decision to ordain women. The rest was characterized as a love letter written over lunch awkwardly crafted as gratitude for the privilege of founding a church that serves hundreds of times more members on a typical Sunday than ninety percent of the ostensible objects of his affection.

Cue tepid response.

Doesn’t seem to me that any religion would fail to make that claim with regard to its own god(s). As to the specifics of a special relationship with the god who created the universe, that would be a matter of whether he had decided that he wanted a special relationship.

I’m sure you’re aware creator gods don’t figure prominently in most religions. Hinduism has a creator god whose worship awaits his sleeping it off until called for re-enaction after the next round of world destruction. Buddhism doesn’t bother with a creator god at all.

The supremacy of creator gods is pretty much an Abrahamic thing. Most creator gods get offed by their offspring before hitting the rinse and repeat cycles. There’s evidence Yahweh did that to El before taking over his throne and his principal concubine, Asherah.

Much seems to be wrong in Genesis, certainly. For the most part, there’s little reason to suppose that anything prior to Abraham is more than a collection of traditional tales.

I think we’ve discussed this before. There are snippets of pre-Abrahamic tradition that check out, like the worship of Tammuz, known as Dumuzi in the earlier tradition. The dismissal of Hagar after bearing his son is straight out of the Code of Lipit-Ishtar.
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§27 If a man's wife has not borne him children but a harlot from the public square has borne him children, he shall provide grain, oil and clothing for that harlot. The children which the harlot has borne him shall be his heirs, and as long as his wife lives the harlot shall not live in the house with the wife.

For the one who created the universe, such a difficulty would not be expected to be an impediment.

The evidence is that the creator of our universe didn’t manage the trick, making the argument that it wouldn’t be an impediment something which remains to be shown, rules agreed to in Narnia notwithstanding.

It may have escaped your notice, but I was actually arguing for true doctrine. On scriptural grounds, Warren is justified in ordaining women as leaders of in a church, even as the chief leader. Whether he is justified in claiming association with the SBC whilst violating the rules of its charter is arguably another matter.

There are unresolved questions on whether ordaining women in subordinate roles violates the BF&M. Two of the three women ordained at Saddleback were clearly being tasked to serve only their minor members.
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The three newly ordained pastors are longtime Saddleback staff members. Petty has worked with children’s ministry and Edwards has been in youth ministry, while Puffer’s Linked-In profile lists her as a “minister” at Saddleback.

That’s before we note BF&M is itself an evolving document (see VI: The Church).
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1925
A church of Christ is a congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the ordinances of Christ, governed by his laws, and exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by his word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Its Scriptural officers are bishops, or elders, and deacons.

1963
A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is a local body of baptized believers who are associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel, observing the two ordinances of Christ, committed to His teachings, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth.

This church is an autonomous body, operating through democratic processes under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. In such a congregation, members are equally responsible. Its Scriptural officers are pastors and deacons.

The New Testament speaks also of the church as the body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages.

2000
A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the two ordinances of Christ, governed by His laws, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.

The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Arguably, the continuing refusal to listen to their women is at the heart of the sexual abuse crisis at SBC, and the revision to make that refusal explicit in 2000 exacerbated the problem.

Ending the suppression of women’s voices seems a necessary first step to me. In one of the stories I read, a man swiveled his chair around in the middle of a woman’s account of her sexual abuse. Well played. That woman was a lawyer. In theory, any of the other men there could have given that chair a swift kick to turn it around. The same theory says kicking an extremity perched on that chair would do the same job, but more efficiently.

#notallsouthernbaptists #notatruescotsman #doesthischairmakemybuttlooktoofat

Any argument that this isn’t linked to the ordination of women raises prominent eyebrows.
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Moore inadvertently sparked a renewed debate over the role of women in church two years ago, when she tweeted a joke about speaking in a church on Mother’s Day. At the time, the SBC was grappling with revelations about significant sexual abuse in its ranks.

“We were in the middle of the biggest sexual abuse scandal that has ever hit our denomination,” she told RNS in a March interview, announcing that she was no longer a Southern Baptist. “And suddenly, the most important thing to talk about was whether a woman could stand at the pulpit and give a message.”

Maybe the deflection wasn’t deliberate.

Well now – nothing in scripture can be rightly interpreted to say that everything in the Bible is divinely inspired. And there are sections of Paul’s writing where divine inspiration is explicitly denied.

Only the divinely inspired deny being divinely inspired.

So it seems. However it could be said that Warren has entered into partnership with the SBC whilst flying false colours.

And it could also be said his detractors are the ones speaking off-color.

So responding to your comments would make the respondent the bad-guy? I’m comfortable with that.

Misrepresenting my comments makes you the bad guy, but only insofar as you’re unwilling to correct the misrepresentation. Others achieve that honor by refusing to reciprocate my tolerance for their religious beliefs, as my earlier comment should rightly have been interpreted.

It is a two way street. Being willing let others run their congregations in a way that suits them, provided that there is no harm intended (or actual) by that organisation, would seem to come under the heading of basic decency. Whether to restrict leadership to men, given that the Bible can be reasonably said to be ambiguous on the issue, is entirely up to the group concerned. In short, no one has grounds to demand that the SBC change its rules on the issue of ordination of women. Debating the issue is another matter.

In necessary context, most of these churches are one-horse shows. Moderately-sized churches need more horsepower than that. Megachurches with a baker’s dozen campuses, like Saddleback, can’t be run by a single pastor. When it’s just one pastor, and he’s a guy, room for rumbling about making no room for women pastors is restricted.

On average, each of the 14 campuses at Saddleback preaches to 2000 congregants each Sunday.

A megachurch I attended as a teenager had three pastors serving when it was that size and was looking for more. Two of them went on to found megachurches of their own, including the youth pastor, the since-departed Jim Dixon who founded the largest megachurch in the Denver area at Cherry Hills, since being ripped apart by a recent scandal. I wrote him some years back after they’d partnered with the Lee Strobel Center to promote intelligent design. He never wrote me back.

They aren’t and won’t. “God accepts anyone, from anywhere, who does what is right;” the converse also applies.

Maybe in general parlance, but I suspect you’re speaking of the inverse, “If you don’t do what’s right, then God won’t accept you.” Which would be wrong. Remember, if you don’t sin, then Jesus died for nothing. The converse would be if God accepts you, then you do what’s right, an equally problematic but more defensible position actually adopted and defended by the TULIPs.

I can’t tell which direction you were going. Not that that’s at all novel in our conversations, which are welcome regardless.