Is the verse about something whispered in a room being shouted from the roof relevant? Don't try to cover up evil. It will come to light eventually! Still can't fathom how those jerks thought they could get away with it. Or are they arrogant fools that don't believe they will be held accountable?
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostIs the verse about something whispered in a room being shouted from the roof relevant? Don't try to cover up evil. It will come to light eventually! Still can't fathom how those jerks thought they could get away with it. Or are they arrogant fools that don't believe they will be held accountable?"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostSo what is the practical solution?
Do you understand the problem?
It's all very well to call for and enact excommunication, but how do you deal with the repentant person?
Although I'm sure you are smart, the solution is to follow what the scriptures teach. Yes, man is two thousand years smarter and more sophisticated, but where has our smarts and sophistication led us?
It led us to the point where you don't trust men to be around children.
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Originally posted by Maranatha View Post
What do you consider a solution?
Do you understand the problem?
Start excommunicating and then work on any problems that arise. That is the biblical way to fix a biblical problem.
Although I'm sure you are smart, the solution is to follow what the scriptures teach. Yes, man is two thousand years smarter and more sophisticated, but where has our smarts and sophistication led us?
It led us to the point where you don't trust men to be around children.
Preventing the problem from arising will involve restructuring the churches to make the congregations aware of their responsibilities and acknowledging their right to self determination, but subject to review. People need to hold themselves accountable to each other. Until that is done, recurrence is a foregone conclusion.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Just saying "start excommunicating people" doesn't fully address the issue. Some of these reports are of the nature that were heavily suspected but not quite proven; so of the nature where it would be prudent to remove the person from ministry, but there isn't quite the proof, practically or biblically, to outright remove from church membership. (And excommunicating based on a rumor runs into the possible legal issue of slander.)"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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I agree with one commentor I listen to on the subject that said offenses of this nature cannot be handled solely in-house. While there is definite need for church discipline, the church should also contact the police. Either way, there will be bad publicity and shame on the name of Christ. Trying to delay the exposure only makes things worse. Just go talk to the Boy Scouts or Roman Catholic church."For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View PostI agree with one commentor I listen to on the subject that said offenses of this nature cannot be handled solely in-house. While there is definite need for church discipline, the church should also contact the police. Either way, there will be bad publicity and shame on the name of Christ. Trying to delay the exposure only makes things worse. Just go talk to the Boy Scouts or Roman Catholic church.
Proactive measures need to be in place to prevent such events insofar as is possible. Where those measures fail, yes, it is not something to try to deal with in house.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 2 likes
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View PostI agree with one commentor I listen to on the subject that said offenses of this nature cannot be handled solely in-house. While there is definite need for church discipline, the church should also contact the police. Either way, there will be bad publicity and shame on the name of Christ. Trying to delay the exposure only makes things worse. Just go talk to the Boy Scouts or Roman Catholic church."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
I know some churches have avoided the police on the basis of 1 Corinthians 6:1-6.
I raised the point because as I was reading the thread, I saw too many posts trying to treat something this heinous as strictly a church matter. I'll grant I may have just misread the posts. In my opinion, the SBC report shows an issue that's too big to solve in the church.
Also, there is a lot of trauma involved. I know many pastors are well intentioned, but again this above their skill level to deal with. In a previous church, I saw a pastor try to deal with an abusive husband and it didn't go well."For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostDealing with the problem will involve excommunication.
Preventing the problem from arising will involve restructuring the churches to make the congregations aware of their responsibilities and acknowledging their right to self determination, but subject to review. People need to hold themselves accountable to each other. Until that is done, recurrence is a foregone conclusion.
I would say if you have to defend a fellowship from predators then maybe you'll have to use the same tools as the world does.
The church has open doors to the world so I don't think you can stop it. And the sicker this world becomes the more will come.
I don't envy people charged with protecting fellowships nowadays. Me and my wife ran a large nursery and other children's ministries at a Calvary in the 90's. I wouldn't even consider it today.
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[QUOTE=Maranatha;n1380616]
Where it hasn't has allowed a festering evil. It's important in today's society to address it immediately and firmly, imo. It's not my call, I don't make these sorts of decisions.
I have heard a church I used to attend now does background checks on anyone working with children.
I would say if you have to defend a fellowship from predators then maybe you'll have to use the same tools as the world does.
The church has open doors to the world so I don't think you can stop it. And the sicker this world becomes the more will come.
I don't envy people charged with protecting fellowships nowadays. Me and my wife ran a large nursery and other children's ministries at a Calvary in the 90's. I wouldn't even consider it today.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThere is a sort of inevitability that any organization large enough will have bad apples, even with the most stringent protections (universal background checks, rules prohibiting spending time alone with kids, etc.). There are a high number of teachers who get "involved" with students, and few would argue that this means that teachers are inherently bad (though some people have gone there). The analogy here would be the teachers' union working to undermine those investigations. And if a teachers' union did that to the extent that happened here, even they wouldn't be able to spin it in the court of public opinion. And a church, you would think, would have the moral compunction to actively root those bad apples out and seek justice."If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Originally posted by myth View Post
I dunno, I arrested a teacher for molesting his students and he had fellow teachers take time off work to come to court and sit with his family as a show of support for him. With the 8 victims' families also in the court room. The school system did nothing to the teachers, there wasn't even a public outcry. He eventually pled guilty, and his teacher supporters still have their jobs in the school.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Early in the 1970s we had a teacher at my school dunned for the "involvement" with a couple of students. There weren't too many students who considered he had done anything particularly wrong. The thinking was that the young women were old enough to date, so they were old enough to choose whom they would date."If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Originally posted by myth View Post
Most people probably wouldn't say a 30 year old man should date 12 year-olds, but those teachers still have their careers after their reprehensible decision to support a molester.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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