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Southern Baptist leaders covered up sex abuse, kept secret database, report says

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  • #31
    Is the verse about something whispered in a room being shouted from the roof relevant? Don't try to cover up evil. It will come to light eventually! Still can't fathom how those jerks thought they could get away with it. Or are they arrogant fools that don't believe they will be held accountable?
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
      Is the verse about something whispered in a room being shouted from the roof relevant? Don't try to cover up evil. It will come to light eventually! Still can't fathom how those jerks thought they could get away with it. Or are they arrogant fools that don't believe they will be held accountable?
      All of the above.
      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        So what is the practical solution?
        What do you consider a solution?

        Do you understand the problem?

        It's all very well to call for and enact excommunication, but how do you deal with the repentant person?
        Start excommunicating and then work on any problems that arise. That is the biblical way to fix a biblical problem.

        Although I'm sure you are smart, the solution is to follow what the scriptures teach. Yes, man is two thousand years smarter and more sophisticated, but where has our smarts and sophistication led us?

        It led us to the point where you don't trust men to be around children.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Maranatha View Post

          What do you consider a solution?

          Do you understand the problem?



          Start excommunicating and then work on any problems that arise. That is the biblical way to fix a biblical problem.

          Although I'm sure you are smart, the solution is to follow what the scriptures teach. Yes, man is two thousand years smarter and more sophisticated, but where has our smarts and sophistication led us?

          It led us to the point where you don't trust men to be around children.
          Dealing with the problem will involve excommunication.
          Preventing the problem from arising will involve restructuring the churches to make the congregations aware of their responsibilities and acknowledging their right to self determination, but subject to review. People need to hold themselves accountable to each other. Until that is done, recurrence is a foregone conclusion.
          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

          Comment


          • #35
            Just saying "start excommunicating people" doesn't fully address the issue. Some of these reports are of the nature that were heavily suspected but not quite proven; so of the nature where it would be prudent to remove the person from ministry, but there isn't quite the proof, practically or biblically, to outright remove from church membership. (And excommunicating based on a rumor runs into the possible legal issue of slander.)
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #36
              I agree with one commentor I listen to on the subject that said offenses of this nature cannot be handled solely in-house. While there is definite need for church discipline, the church should also contact the police. Either way, there will be bad publicity and shame on the name of Christ. Trying to delay the exposure only makes things worse. Just go talk to the Boy Scouts or Roman Catholic church.
              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                I agree with one commentor I listen to on the subject that said offenses of this nature cannot be handled solely in-house. While there is definite need for church discipline, the church should also contact the police. Either way, there will be bad publicity and shame on the name of Christ. Trying to delay the exposure only makes things worse. Just go talk to the Boy Scouts or Roman Catholic church.
                Or the Anglican church ... or ... or the Baptist Church itself, which had a similar blow up a few years ago in the missions arm of the group.

                Proactive measures need to be in place to prevent such events insofar as is possible. Where those measures fail, yes, it is not something to try to deal with in house.
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                  I agree with one commentor I listen to on the subject that said offenses of this nature cannot be handled solely in-house. While there is definite need for church discipline, the church should also contact the police. Either way, there will be bad publicity and shame on the name of Christ. Trying to delay the exposure only makes things worse. Just go talk to the Boy Scouts or Roman Catholic church.
                  I know some churches have avoided the police on the basis of 1 Corinthians 6:1-6.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                    I know some churches have avoided the police on the basis of 1 Corinthians 6:1-6.
                    I see their point but for me there is a difference between a dispute and a criminal act.

                    I raised the point because as I was reading the thread, I saw too many posts trying to treat something this heinous as strictly a church matter. I'll grant I may have just misread the posts. In my opinion, the SBC report shows an issue that's too big to solve in the church.

                    Also, there is a lot of trauma involved. I know many pastors are well intentioned, but again this above their skill level to deal with. In a previous church, I saw a pastor try to deal with an abusive husband and it didn't go well.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Dealing with the problem will involve excommunication.
                      Where it hasn't has allowed a festering evil. It's important in today's society to address it immediately and firmly, imo. It's not my call, I don't make these sorts of decisions.

                      Preventing the problem from arising will involve restructuring the churches to make the congregations aware of their responsibilities and acknowledging their right to self determination, but subject to review. People need to hold themselves accountable to each other. Until that is done, recurrence is a foregone conclusion.
                      I have heard a church I used to attend now does background checks on anyone working with children.

                      I would say if you have to defend a fellowship from predators then maybe you'll have to use the same tools as the world does.

                      The church has open doors to the world so I don't think you can stop it. And the sicker this world becomes the more will come.

                      I don't envy people charged with protecting fellowships nowadays. Me and my wife ran a large nursery and other children's ministries at a Calvary in the 90's. I wouldn't even consider it today.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        [QUOTE=Maranatha;n1380616]

                        Where it hasn't has allowed a festering evil. It's important in today's society to address it immediately and firmly, imo. It's not my call, I don't make these sorts of decisions.
                        Today's society ... it reacts; it doesn't take any real preventative measures, and that is factoring in things like accreditation.

                        I have heard a church I used to attend now does background checks on anyone working with children.
                        Most churches here require police accreditation. I haven't kept up with the legal requirements that are in force (I do the accreditation thing anyway) but I think it is now required by law for everyone working with children or other vulnerable groups, whether paid or volunteer. Ordinary accreditation is not good enough for some work - it has to go to a higher level.

                        I would say if you have to defend a fellowship from predators then maybe you'll have to use the same tools as the world does.
                        More than that I think. Community responsibility needs to be promoted, which includes instilling the understanding that individual rights have boundaries.

                        The church has open doors to the world so I don't think you can stop it. And the sicker this world becomes the more will come.
                        That is the critical point: the church is not supposed to have an open borders policy.

                        I don't envy people charged with protecting fellowships nowadays. Me and my wife ran a large nursery and other children's ministries at a Calvary in the 90's. I wouldn't even consider it today.
                        Fully understood.
                        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          There is a sort of inevitability that any organization large enough will have bad apples, even with the most stringent protections (universal background checks, rules prohibiting spending time alone with kids, etc.). There are a high number of teachers who get "involved" with students, and few would argue that this means that teachers are inherently bad (though some people have gone there). The analogy here would be the teachers' union working to undermine those investigations. And if a teachers' union did that to the extent that happened here, even they wouldn't be able to spin it in the court of public opinion. And a church, you would think, would have the moral compunction to actively root those bad apples out and seek justice.
                          I dunno, I arrested a teacher for molesting his students and he had fellow teachers take time off work to come to court and sit with his family as a show of support for him. With the 8 victims' families also in the court room. The school system did nothing to the teachers, there wasn't even a public outcry. He eventually pled guilty, and his teacher supporters still have their jobs in the school.
                          "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by myth View Post

                            I dunno, I arrested a teacher for molesting his students and he had fellow teachers take time off work to come to court and sit with his family as a show of support for him. With the 8 victims' families also in the court room. The school system did nothing to the teachers, there wasn't even a public outcry. He eventually pled guilty, and his teacher supporters still have their jobs in the school.
                            Early in the 1970s we had a teacher at my school dunned for the "involvement" with a couple of students. There weren't too many students who considered he had done anything particularly wrong. The thinking was that the young women were old enough to date, so they were old enough to choose whom they would date.
                            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              Early in the 1970s we had a teacher at my school dunned for the "involvement" with a couple of students. There weren't too many students who considered he had done anything particularly wrong. The thinking was that the young women were old enough to date, so they were old enough to choose whom they would date.
                              Most people probably wouldn't say a 30 year old man should date 12 year-olds, but those teachers still have their careers after their reprehensible decision to support a molester.
                              "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by myth View Post

                                Most people probably wouldn't say a 30 year old man should date 12 year-olds, but those teachers still have their careers after their reprehensible decision to support a molester.
                                That age group is a whole nuther category - for reasons unknown, I was thinking the victims were older than that.
                                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                                Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                                "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                                Comment

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