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Southern Baptist leaders covered up sex abuse, kept secret database, report says

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  • Just some random thoughts...

    Are mega-churches somehow more true or correct or righteous or Christ-centered than smaller congretations?
    Joel Osteen pastors a mega-church.

    Jesus had a whole bunch of followers - thousands and thousands - until He began speaking tough language, then many of those departed - John 6:66.

    It's really easy to draw a crowd. It's a lot harder to keep real disciples.

    As for the 'evolution' of the Baptist Faith & Message - each time it was ratified, so to speak, by the Messengers seated at each subsequent Annual Meeting.
    While other denominations continued a gradual drift to the left, the Southern Baptists became more conservative, particularly in the 80's and following.

    NO CHURCH is forced to join - or stay with - the Southern Baptist Convention.
    Those who do, and who affirm the BF&M, should at least be expected not to operate in violation thereof.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      When Trump floated a trial balloon about prosecuting the women who had an abortion it was shot down so fast that I doubt he even had time to release it. The response was overwhelmingly negative.
      I ditched the pro life movement when that happened, but that again, that was fairly recently, in the SJW era.
      Last edited by Darth Executor; 06-19-2022, 02:55 PM.
      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

        Yeah sorry dude, but I've been debating abortion since the 90s on Usenet. That's not even slightly a remotely accurate depiction of the overwhelming majority of pro-lifers. I can count on maybe two hands in the past roughtly 3 decades where I've run into an anti-abortion person arguing that women should be charged with murder.
        Then you haven't debated a lot of pro lifers because it makes no sense to say abortion is murder but you don't want to actually prosecute the murderer. That's basically the John Kerry stance, which he was widely mocked for by pro lifers before they got sudden amnesia in the last few years.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

          Sounds like ole darth has struck upon a strawman.
          It's not a strawman. It doesn't even make sense to call int a straw man because I'm describing my position.

          And in fact anyone who thinks abortion is murder but the murderer shouldn't be punished is in all likelyhood not actually a pro-lifer. The position is completely incoherent. It would be great if you all called yourselves anti-abortion radical feminists which is what the position actually describes.

          Of course, what's happening is that a lot of pro lifers have gotten sudden amnesia about what they used to believe, the same way every liberal now pretends to have always been pro sodomy and bullies anyone whose morality doesn't change with public opinion.
          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post

            Then you haven't debated a lot of pro lifers
            False, I've easily debated thousands in the past three decades, on countless forums and platforms. Even when I became somewhat pro-life a decade ago (against abortion after 20 weeks, wrt brain/sentience), I was still debating folks on both sides of the spectrum.

            because it makes no sense to say abortion is murder but you don't want to actually prosecute the murderer.
            That you personally cannot wrap your mind around something does not make your strawperson alternative somehow magically accurate in its description.

            That's basically the John Kerry stance, which he was widely mocked for by pro lifers before they got sudden amnesia in the last few years.
            Wrong.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post

              It's not a strawman. It doesn't even make sense to call int a straw man because I'm describing my position.
              Yes it is. It's called a strawman because you are trying to claim it is or has been the opinion of others, when it is not. That you hold that opinion is meaningless wrt it being a strawman.

              And in fact anyone who thinks abortion is murder but the murderer shouldn't be punished is in all likelyhood not actually a pro-lifer.
              And a no troo scotsman to follow up.

              The position is completely incoherent. It would be great if you all called yourselves anti-abortion radical feminists which is what the position actually describes.
              We understand, your little pea brain can't grasp this.

              Of course, what's happening is that a lot of pro lifers have gotten sudden amnesia about what they used to believe, the same way every liberal now pretends to have always been pro sodomy and bullies anyone whose morality doesn't change with public opinion.
              Again, false, you're making crap up.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                That you personally cannot wrap your mind around something does not make your strawperson alternative somehow magically accurate in its description.
                Nah, I can wrap my head around it just fine. It's simping, and its roots go as far back as Adam and Eve. Men will damn themselves to hell before they'll tell a woman she's wrong, let alone adequately punish her appropriately for her crimes.
                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post

                  Nah, I can wrap my head around it just fine. It's simping, and its roots go as far back as Adam and Eve. Men will damn themselves to hell before they'll tell a woman she's wrong, let alone adequately punish her appropriately for her crimes.


                  Come back when you're capable of grasping the fact that you were dead wrong in your assertion.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post



                    Come back when you're capable of grasping the fact that you were dead wrong in your assertion.
                    "Who will you believe, me or your own lying eyes?"

                    No. My assertion was 100% correct, it was the default pro-life position, regardless of how many "pro-lifers" today deny it like Peter tried to deny Christ after Gethsemane.
                    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                    Comment


                    • Again, it seems that the dire warnings of the Death of the SBC have evaporated, along with any rumblings of explosive sexual revelations causing its demise.
                      Apparently, the SBC Messengers handled it so well that the media (and, apparently, Tweb posters) have abandoned this is a topic of debate.

                      Instead, the focus has changed to Rick Warren and "mega-churches", like somehow being a mega-church enjoys some special stamp of approval from on High.
                      (The broad path vs the straight and narrow path, and all that)

                      So, here's a summary of the Rick Warren saga that seems a whole lot more consistent with what I saw as a registered messenger actually in attendance, and in the same room with, the whole Warren incident.

                      SBC committee delays decision on whether to expel Saddleback Church over female 'pastors'

                      The Southern Baptist Convention has delayed a decision on whether to remove Rick Warren's Saddleback Church from the denomination in light of the California megachurch's ordination of three female pastors last year.

                      Saddleback Church's ordination of the three pastors last May in what the church called a "historic night" drew the ire of many in the largest Protestant denomination in America in light of the 2000 Baptist Faith & Message statement's ban on female ordination.

                      Some called for the congregation to be disfellowshiped from the convention over the ordination of — Liz Puffer, Cynthia Petty and Katie Edwards.

                      The SBC Credentials Committee, tasked with handling concerns about whether churches that cooperate with the convention are abiding by the SBC standards of faith and practice, announced Tuesday at the SBC Annual Meeting in Anaheim, California, that it would delay a decision on Saddleback's standing.

                      "Based on the information available to us currently, including direct communication with Pastor Rick Warren, ... we have concluded that we are not yet prepared to make a recommendation regarding Saddleback Church, recognizing there are differing opinions regarding the intent of the office of pastor as stated in the Baptist Faith & Message 2000," Committee Chair Linda Cooper told meeting attendees.

                      "We feel it is very important for you to know that it is the unanimous opinion of the Credentials Committee that the majority of Southern Baptists hold to the belief that the function of lead pastor, elder, bishop or overseer is limited to men as qualified by Scripture."

                      But Cooper noted that the committee "found little information evidencing convention beliefs regarding the use of the title of pastor, for staff positions with different responsibilities and authority than that of lead pastor role."

                      Southern Baptist Theological Seminary President Al Mohler was among the critics of the ordination, writing in a 2021 column that he considered it "contrary to Scripture."

                      "This is no longer a point of tension and debate. These moves represent an attempt to redefine and reformulate the convictional foundation of Southern Baptist faith and cooperative ministry," wrote Mohler.

                      "The theological issues have not changed since the year 2000 when Southern Baptists spoke clearly and precisely in the Baptist Faith & Message. More importantly, the Holy Scriptures have not changed and cannot change."

                      At last year's SBC annual meeting, a motion was offered to break fellowship with Saddleback over the ordination, with the measure being referred to the SBC Credentials Committee.

                      Warren, the popular author of The Purpose Driven Life who had recently announced his retirement from Saddleback Church, addressed the convention floor. He said that he would not defend himself at that time.

                      Instead, Warren focused his Tuesday remarks on how he believed the SBC had positively influenced his ministry over the decades and warned against divisiveness.

                      "As Western culture grows more dark, more evil and more secular, we have to decide are we going to treat each other as allies or adversaries?" Warren stated.

                      "Are we going to keep bickering over secondary issues, or are we going to keep the main thing the main thing?"


                      The result is that a new debate is bubbling up --- is the ordination of Women "a main thing", or is it standing in the way of "keeping the main thing the main thing".

                      The MAIN THING to me is that the media seems to have given up on the effort to equate the sexual abuse problems within Southern Baptist Churches with the Catholic Church.
                      Obviously, to anybody who even has a clue about how the SBC works, the differences is deep and wide.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • So, for now, it seems to be somewhat of a stand-off.

                        To my knowledge, Warren's (former) Church and their supposed 95 satellite Churches have not made it known that they will part company with the SBC.
                        (that may have happened recently, but, so far, I've found no evidence of that)

                        The Credentials Committee of the SBC, at present time, is not pursuing "withdrawing fellowship" from Saddleback or their satellites.

                        It remains to be seen how this will turn out.

                        In any case, I predict the SBC will survive just fine for the foreseeable future.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • It doesn't take a genius to know the SBC will eventually allow female pastors and get torn apart inside out like the mainline protestant churches, even if they manage to find enough courage to tell the feminists to shut up and go away this time.
                          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                          Comment


                          • I think (and I may be wrong on this) that one of the reasons this hasn't come to an actual full-faced confrontation is that there are no Saddleback churches with a woman as LEAD pastor.
                            In our day and age, even the janitor of the church can be called the "Facilities Pastor" or something. (I'm being facetious, but maybe not)

                            In the old days, a Baptist Church had a Pastor, a song leader, a youth minister or youth director or youth worker --- now everybody is a "pastor".

                            So, the fact that Saddleback will be "Pastored" by a husband and wife team (Pastor and "Teaching Pastor") seems vague enough not to come to a full-blown battle.

                            For now, the Baptist Faith & Message (since just before 2000) says [bolding mine]...

                            VI. The Church

                            A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the two ordinances of Christ, governed by His laws, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.

                            The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

                            Matthew 16:15-19; 18:15-20; Acts 2:41-42,47; 5:11-14; 6:3-6; 13:1-3; 14:23,27; 15:1-30; 16:5; 20:28; Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 3:16; 5:4-5; 7:17; 9:13-14; 12; Ephesians 1:22-23; 2:19-22; 3:8-11,21; 5:22-32; Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:18; 1 Timothy 2:9-14; 3:1-15; 4:14; Hebrews 11:39-40; 1 Peter 5:1-4; Revelation 2-3; 21:2-3.


                            It's being argued that "the Office of Pastor" isn't necessarily referring to support roles under the pastor.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                              It doesn't take a genius to know the SBC will eventually allow female pastors and get torn apart inside out like the mainline protestant churches, even if they manage to find enough courage to tell the feminists to shut up and go away this time.
                              Here's why that won't happen any time soon....

                              The SBC is unique in its rejection of the "top down" hierarchy, where we don't have a Pope, or Bishops, or some high ranking big headed ecclesiastical potentates calling the shots.

                              And the mega-churches are pretty much regulated by the fact that they can have - as an absolute maximum - no more than 12 messengers per church at the Annual Meeting.

                              It's the "rank and file" that calls the shots, and the vast majority of "rank and file" Southern Baptist Messengers are conservative, and want to remain conservative.
                              When groups of liberals want to pull the SBC to the left, they get exasperated and end up starting their own conventions or denominations.

                              The Baptist Faith & Message 2000 became more conservative, not less.

                              While the "mainline protestant churches" seem to be in competition to "keep up with the culture", the Messengers of SBC Churches say, "woah, not so fast!!!".
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post

                                "Who will you believe, me or your own lying eyes?"

                                No. My assertion was 100% correct, it was the default pro-life position, regardless of how many "pro-lifers" today deny it like Peter tried to deny Christ after Gethsemane.
                                I'll believe myself, and my extensive experience debating on hundreds of forums with thousands of pro-lifers, for several decades. Thanks tho, whacko.

                                Comment

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