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Southern Baptist leaders covered up sex abuse, kept secret database, report says

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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    According to the government sanctioned translation in China it ends

    Jesus once said to the angry crowd who was trying to stone a woman who had sinned, "He who is without sin among you, let him cast a stone at her." When his words came to their ears, they stopped moving forward. When everyone went out, Jesus stoned the woman himself, and said "I am also a sinner."
    Looks like a missed opportunity by the Chinese to just explain Jesus had no legal right to carry out an execution and neither does any single individual. Could have shoehorned it nicely into "punishment must thus come from the party". Instead, they encourage.... vigilantism?
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

    Comment


    • So, to be clear, the whole Rick Warren thing had ZERO to do with the Sexual Abuse Task Force issue, which was what all the hype was about leading up to the Annual Meeting.

      Since that issue didn't blow up, the haters had to move on to "oh well - we can't dog that, so we'll have to come up with something else".


      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        Looks like a missed opportunity by the Chinese to just explain Jesus had no legal right to carry out an execution and neither does any single individual. Could have shoehorned it nicely into "punishment must thus come from the party". Instead, they encourage.... vigilantism?
        Law-breaking is frowned upon by the Chicoms. Hence the woman was not allowed to get away with breaking the law and had to be punished. So the account was altered.

        I recently saw a retelling in a Chinese movie about the story of "Beggar So," a folk hero famous for his drunken style boxing so that when he takes down an evil Imperial eunuch it is revealed at the end he isn't actually a beggar. No, the Chicoms don't want people thinking that they can oppose the government no matter how corrupt, so So is transformed into an agent working for the Emperor (or the good advisor or something like that).

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          So, to be clear, the whole Rick Warren thing had ZERO to do with the Sexual Abuse Task Force issue, which was what all the hype was about leading up to the Annual Meeting.

          Since that issue didn't blow up, the haters had to move on to "oh well - we can't dog that, so we'll have to come up with something else".
          In some sense I can feel for the reporters. It's like coming to cover the Super Bowl only for it to not happen. You still have to report something.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
            Prosecuting women who get abortions isn't "ultraconservative", it's the standard pro-life position.
            I'd being willing to wager that would come as a shock to the majority of those in the pro-life camp.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              In some sense I can feel for the reporters. It's like coming to cover the Super Bowl only for it to not happen. You still have to report something.
              Yeah, it's like going to report on Desert Storm, and it turns out it's two little kids with squirt guns.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                I'd being willing to wager that would come as a shock to the majority of those in the pro-life camp.
                It would certainly come as a shock to those who think women should be permitted to murder their unborn children without consequences, but I would dispute that any such individual is genuinely pro-life.
                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  Warren's comments regarding the number of churches he has founded doesn't have any weight.
                  You’re not clarifying here. What argument are you claiming he’s making, defending, failing to support … whatever. Without that referent, any claims about the weight of his biography are groundless. Warren, more than any other Southern Baptist, has let us know what he’s thinking. Enough with the hand-waving already. What are you objecting to. Explain as if I wasn’t a mind-reader.

                  Churches can be filled by preaching false doctrine quite easily.
                  And if God doesn’t care about it, why should we.

                  Sorry.

                  But please keep in mind that while I’ll try to be respectful, it’s my sincere belief that every church proclaiming a special relationship with the creator of the universe is preaching false doctrine. The Bible says nothing about our universe. The timing is wrong. The biology is wrong. The geology is wrong. The history is wrong. The prehistory is wrong. The cosmology is wrong. The cosmogony is wrong. That thing described as coming into being in the Bible … is not our universe. The creatures described as being formed in the image of that creator … are not human. There’s no DNA in dirt.

                  And you want to argue about false doctrines.

                  How about this … “That which is hateful to you, do not do unto your fellow.” Some version shows up in every religious tradition I’ve studied, no historical grammatical analyses of a rebuttably-inspired sacred text needed. “We have to decide if we will treat each other as allies or adversaries,” Mr. Warren said. I’m okay with putting aside the adversarial posture. I have no hope for reciprocity, however.

                  The argument that women are prohibited by scripture from holding authority is unsound at best. However, demonstrating the fact is no easy task, particularly in the face of tradition. The demonstrations involve understanding Koine Greek writing conventions. To an untrained observer they will seem to be mere rationalisations.

                  Argument that scripture actually approves the appointment of women to positions of authority (which it does) will largely seem to be a matter of pitting one set of verses in opposition to another.

                  The scriptures also do not prohibit leadership being restricted to either gender. Thus, I conclude that individual congregations are free to make their own decisions regarding the matter. What they are not free to do is declare another congregation, with different views, to be in violation of scriptural warrant: the matter is adiaphora.
                  Common sense, basic decency, placing people in positions for which they’re suited by passion, compassion, and training — not their dangly bits. Taking advantage of the gifts granted to them by whatever gods there might be. Those are the arguments I want to hear, and the arguments to which I grant weight. Does the tradition work for the humans it’s fashioned to serve.

                  If your scriptures are keeping you from doing the right thing, well, there’s bible verses for that, too. You can’t justify your faith with your scriptures if you can’t justify your scriptures with your faith.

                  Comment


                  • Perhaps somebody could start a thread about Rick Warren and his love letter to the SBC.

                    This thread was clearly about the Sexual Abuse Task Force, and the assumption that this would destroy the SBC.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      I'd being willing to wager that would come as a shock to the majority of those in the pro-life camp.
                      That wasn’t just another member at the convention. Again, I don’t know how many of the 40 percent who voted for him were bused in to pump the vote. I don’t know how many votes were cast for that matter. But even allowing that as many as half were ringers, that’s substantial support. And as you suggest, and according to my personal belief and experience, and by the final vote tally in a baseline conservative organization, still not a majority.

                      Comment


                      • The stories were about the entire convention and included details about the response to the scandal as well.

                        But Warren was the lede in both of those articles. He might be just one member in the eyes of the other attendees, but he’s the only name anyone knew before the convention, and likely the only name anyone knows afterwards. Still, the Times piece by Ruth Graham and Elizabeth Dias was all but brutal in its dismissal.


                        This shows a clear ignorance of how the Convention operates.

                        A) The SBC "Convention" technically only operates 2 days each year when Messengers are seated at our Annual Meeting.
                        (The other 363 days are run by the Executive Committee - when the 2 day Annual Meeting is over - that "Convention" no longer exists)
                        2) Warren was there as a "Messenger", just as every other duly credentialed Messenger.
                        c) He didn't even speak from the platform, but from a floor mike like every other Messenger, and was not an official Officer or spokesperson.
                        D) He is NOT the only name everybody knew before the convention - that's just silly.
                        iv) He has the exact same vote as a layperson from Podunk Hollow who was sent by his/her Church as a Messenger.

                        Are some people having the vapors because Warren's megachurch and it's supposed 95 satellite Churches may pull out of the SBC? Sure.
                        Will the SBC be able to hobble on without them? Absolutely.

                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

                          That wasn’t just another member at the convention. Again, I don’t know how many of the 40 percent who voted for him were bused in to pump the vote. I don’t know how many votes were cast for that matter. But even allowing that as many as half were ringers, that’s substantial support. And as you suggest, and according to my personal belief and experience, and by the final vote tally in a baseline conservative organization, still not a majority.
                          Again, who would bus anybody in? Each church is limited to the number of Messengers they can send, based on size and contributions, but the maximum for any church is 12 Messengers. Even Warren's Church could only have 12 Messengers seated.

                          Article III. Composition: The Convention shall consist of messengers who are members of Baptist churches in cooperation with the Convention. The following subparagraphs describe the Convention’s current standards and method of determining the maximum number of messengers the Convention will recognize from each cooperating church to attend the Convention’s annual meeting.
                          1. The Convention will only deem a church to be in friendly cooperation with the Convention, and sympathetic with its purposes and work (i.e., a “cooperating” church as that term is used in the Convention’s governing documents) which:
                            (1) Has a faith and practice which closely identifies with the Convention’s adopted statement of faith. (By way of example, churches which act to affirm, approve, or endorse homosexual behavior would be deemed not to be in cooperation with the Convention.)
                            (2) Has formally approved its intention to cooperate with the Southern Baptist Convention. (By way of example, the regular filing of the annual report requested by the Convention would be one indication of such cooperation.)
                            (3) Has made undesignated, financial contribution(s) through the Cooperative Program, and/or through the Convention’s Executive Committee for Convention causes, and/or to any Convention entity during the fiscal year preceding.
                            (4) Does not act in a manner inconsistent with the Convention’s beliefs regarding sexual abuse.
                            (5) Does not act to affirm, approve, or endorse discriminatory behavior on the basis of ethnicity.
                          2. Under the terms above, the Convention will recognize to participate in its annual meeting two (2) messengers from each cooperating church, and such additional messengers as are permitted below.
                          3. The Convention will recognize additional messengers from a cooperating church under one of the options described below. Whichever method allows the church the greater number of messengers shall apply:
                            (1) One additional messenger for each full percent of the church’s undesignated receipts which the church contributed during the fiscal year preceding through the Cooperative Program, and/or through the Convention’s Executive Committee for Convention causes, and/or to any Convention entity; or
                            (2) One additional messenger for each $6,000 which the church contributed during the fiscal year preceding through the Cooperative Program, and/or through the Convention’s Executive Committee for Convention causes, and/or to any Convention entity.
                          4. The messengers shall be appointed and certified by their church to the Convention, but the Convention will not recognize more than twelve (12) from any cooperating church.
                          5. Each messenger shall be a member of the church by which he or she is appointed.
                          6. If a church experiences a natural disaster or calamitous event and, as a result, the church is not qualified to appoint as many messengers as the church could appoint for the Convention’s annual meeting immediately before the event, the church’s pastor or an authorized church representative may, for no more than the three (3) annual meetings after the event, certify the facts to the registration secretary and obtain the same number of messengers it could have certified for the Convention’s annual meeting immediately before the event.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Law-breaking is frowned upon by the Chicoms. Hence the woman was not allowed to get away with breaking the law and had to be punished. So the account was altered.

                            I recently saw a retelling in a Chinese movie about the story of "Beggar So," a folk hero famous for his drunken style boxing so that when he takes down an evil Imperial eunuch it is revealed at the end he isn't actually a beggar. No, the Chicoms don't want people thinking that they can oppose the government no matter how corrupt, so So is transformed into an agent working for the Emperor (or the good advisor or something like that).
                            But Jesus stoning her to death would have broken state law in order to enact private religious justice. The Chicoms simply don't understand what was happening and unwittingly endorsed vigilantism and religious insurrection against the state.
                            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post

                              Prosecuting women who get abortions isn't "ultraconservative", it's the standard pro-life position. The fact that the pro-life movement has been invaded by feminists who want to blame abortions on men and pretend every woman who gets an abortion is a victim is a different issue altogether.
                              Not sure what definition of "standard" you're using here. It might be logically consistent but it's certainly not common.
                              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                I am going to stick my nose in, and refer your attention to Titus 1:5
                                Interestingly enough, one of the "big draws" as far as 'meetings after the meeting' was the 9Marks meeting, where a plurality of elders is encouraged over one pastor.

                                The one I attended probably had about 900 (mostly men) in attendance.

                                It was a panel discussion on the future of the SBC --- and, quite honestly, some of the panel members were very hopeful after the "big vote", and some of them were concerned there was still a "liberal drift" that needed attention.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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