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  • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
    If you think a term is meaningless because it doesn't have an objective definition, then I've got news for you. All words are meaningless.

    You should stop using them.
    Then define 'woman' objectively or not. Though the tokes we uses are subjective we attach them to objective realities. If I speak about a jet plane and a kitten, you know the difference. We are describing two different things with objective differences.
    Last edited by seer; 05-31-2022, 06:59 PM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Then define 'woman' objectively or not.
      I thought Starlight did a pretty good job of it here.

      Though the tokes we uses are subjective we attach them to objective realities.
      Sometimes the words we use refer to objective things, and sometimes not.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        So an effeminate gay man who likes girly things is a woman, even if he doesn't identify as a woman?
        The language you have used in that sentence indicates your own cultural and stereotypical assumptions regarding gender.

        Originally posted by seer View Post

        Are gender roles cultural and socially constructed in higher primates or are they biologically determined?
        You may need to consult with a primatologist.

        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
          I thought Starlight did a pretty good job of it here.
          No, that was not a pretty good job - a woman is a biological female and also not a biological female. How is that a rational definition? There are no actual descriptors of what a woman is.


          Sometimes the words we use refer to objective things, and sometimes not.
          Are you saying that a women is not an objective entity? Really Stoic, that is weak - goodness you would not apply that standard to a female chimp or a cat.

          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            The language you have used in that sentence indicates your own cultural and stereotypical assumptions regarding gender.
            You said:

            Gender is a cultural and socially constructed set of behaviours and characteristics apportioned to, or deemed "natural/normal" for, females.

            That makes no sense. A man thinking that he is a woman doesn't make it so, many transvestites take on the role of a female but don't identify as a women. So behaviors and characteristics don't define gender. Then what does?

            You may need to consult with a primatologist.
            It is clear that "gender" i.e. sex roles are evident in higher primates, like our closest cousins the chimpanzee, and are innate - not merely culturally induced.

            Wild chimpanzee communities [11] are multi-male, multi-female and are characterized by a male dominance hierarchy in which philopatric males form the stable core of the community and defend a group territory [5]. Within these communities, adult male and female chimpanzees show distinct sex differences in behavior.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...0in%20behavior.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post

              You said:

              Gender is a cultural and socially constructed set of behaviours and characteristics apportioned to, or deemed "natural/normal" for, females.

              That makes no sense. A man thinking that he is a woman doesn't make it so, many transvestites take on the role of a female but don't identify as a women. So behaviors and characteristics don't define gender. Then what does?



              It is clear that "gender" i.e. sex roles are evident in higher primates, like our closest cousins the chimpanzee, and are innate - not merely culturally induced.
              Not only chimps, and not only adults. And further into the article, there is a passage that claims boys and girls choose toys on the basis of what they can do with the toy, not on any perceived sex appropriate designation.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                You said:

                Gender is a cultural and socially constructed set of behaviours and characteristics apportioned to, or deemed "natural/normal" for, females.
                And you immediately resorted to your preconceived cultural stereotypes about "girly things" and your use of the word "effeminate" [of a man or boy having traits, tastes, habits, etc., traditionally considered feminine] - my emphasis.

                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • If "woman" is just a social construct without an objective definition, then we can toss out all those societal complaints about "women" not being paid or treated equally to men, or any whining about the "patriarchy" keeping "women" treated as second class citizens. We can just do away with "women's studies" in college, "women's sports" and all that stuff since anyone can be a woman just by claiming to be so. "Feminism" is now a term without meaning also.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    And you immediately resorted to your preconceived cultural stereotypes about "girly things" and your use of the word "effeminate" [of a man or boy having traits, tastes, habits, etc., traditionally considered feminine] - my emphasis.
                    They are not just cultural stereotypes, as my link showed with our primate cousins these stereotypes are at least partially innate. But the question remains, how does having feminine tastes make a man a woman, rather than a male with feminine tastes? My wife (God rest her soul) was rather butch, she would rather change the oil and plugs in the car or play ball with the boys than do traditional "girl" things. None of that made her a male.
                    Last edited by seer; 06-01-2022, 08:12 AM.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      If "woman" is just a social construct without an objective definition, then we can toss out all those societal complaints about "women" not being paid or treated equally to men, or any whining about the "patriarchy" keeping "women" treated as second class citizens. We can just do away with "women's studies" in college, "women's sports" and all that stuff since anyone can be a woman just by claiming to be so. "Feminism" is now a term without meaning also.
                      Yeah!

                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      If gender is a social construct, and gender roles social constructs as well, then why bother with gender at all when it's is a smooth continuum?

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        If "woman" is just a social construct without an objective definition, then we can toss out all those societal complaints about "women" not being paid or treated equally to men, or any whining about the "patriarchy" keeping "women" treated as second class citizens. We can just do away with "women's studies" in college, "women's sports" and all that stuff since anyone can be a woman just by claiming to be so. "Feminism" is now a term without meaning also.
                        They are sawing through the very branch that they are sitting on...

                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          Not only chimps, and not only adults. And further into the article, there is a passage that claims boys and girls choose toys on the basis of what they can do with the toy, not on any perceived sex appropriate designation.
                          Exactly...
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post

                            They are sawing through the very branch that they are sitting on...
                            That seems to be a common characteristic of Democrats and Liberals. I have said they never think ahead of any consequences of their actions. They often hoist themselves by their own petards because of this flaw. This whole gender/trans movement will eventually bite them on their own rear ends as they realize the logical result is the destruction of the Women's Movement and Feminism. If anyone can be a woman, then the word "woman" is meaningless. If someone doesn't like the way they are treated as a woman they can just claim to be a man! Problem solved right?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post

                              Exactly...
                              Several years ago there was a series of programs on PBS hosted by Alan Alda (who can hardly be characterized as a right winger) that dealt with what it meant to be human -- broadly speaking. One episode mentioned a bunch of studies (and repeated some of them in front of the camera) that revealed that even in infancy, long before society could possibly impress gender roles or expectations on them, boys and girls are profoundly different. Or as Alda said (paraphrasing), something that parents who had raised both boys and girls already knew. The one I remember most clearly was that boys are far more likely to try to climb over or otherwise circumvent, a barrier designed to prevent them from exiting an area, than girls were who typically were content to stay where they were.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Several years ago there was a series of programs on PBS hosted by Alan Alda (who can hardly be characterized as a right winger) that dealt with what it meant to be human -- broadly speaking. One episode mentioned a bunch of studies (and repeated some of them in front of the camera) that revealed that even in infancy, long before society could possibly impress gender roles or expectations on them, boys and girls are profoundly different. Or as Alda said (paraphrasing), something that parents who had raised both boys and girls already knew. The one I remember most clearly was that boys are far more likely to try to climb over or otherwise circumvent, a barrier designed to prevent them from exiting an area, than girls were who typically were content to stay where they were.
                                But all these studies are simply the unquestioning acceptance of preconceived opinions, they don't have the imprimatur of real scholarshipTM: they have no support from the majority consensus.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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