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Abortion and Bodily Autonomy

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  • #46
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    No, I just don't care.
    Which explains why these discussions are ultimately so dull, as your lack of interest and intellectual curiosity precludes you from actually discussing the topic in any meaningful way. It would require as a basic some grasp of the opposing standpoint- which you lack, as you admit yourself.

    Don't you think that over the years that I haven't heard every justification?
    Then why can't you name any? It was simple for me to articulate the pro-life position, as I easily demonstrated- despite disagreeing with almost all of it. Why are you unable to do the same? The reason I can easily do so is because like you I've heard almost all the justifications for being pro-life - the difference is I was clearly paying more attention.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by EvoUK View Post

      Then why can't you name any? It was simple for me to articulate the pro-life position, as I easily demonstrated- despite disagreeing with almost all of it. Why are you unable to do the same? The reason I can easily do so is because like you I've heard almost all the justifications for being pro-life - the difference is I was clearly paying more attention.
      Can't name one? What do you think that thread is about? One of their more salient justifications - bodily autonomy.



      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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      • #48
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Can't name one? What do you think that thread is about? One of their more salient justifications - bodily autonomy.
        So what, in your own words, is the pro-choice position on bodily autonomy, and why it is important and relevant to the discussion. Obviously it is merely one side of the pro-choice position - which I am sure you are aware having been involved with so many discussions on this subject. I am still trying to work out if you're just being grumpy and difficult, or if you genuinely don't know the pro-choice position as back to front as you should do.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by EvoUK View Post

          So what, in your own words, is the pro-choice position on bodily autonomy, and why it is important and relevant to the discussion. Obviously it is merely one side of the pro-choice position - which I am sure you are aware having been involved with so many discussions on this subject. I am still trying to work out if you're just being grumpy and difficult, or if you genuinely don't know the pro-choice position as back to front as you should do.
          How about this, I don't like scatter shot debates, they get lost in minutia. And you tell me why bodily autonomy is a serious justification, because I don't think it is in light of a human life being ended. So if you care to discuss that particular issue please do. If not don't derail the thread. And BTW unlike the pro-life position which can be clearly set forth the pro-choice position is often reliant on personal subjective needs or wants. But the argument will always come back to autonomy - unless we are speaking of a life threatening situation for the woman.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            And you tell me why bodily autonomy is a serious justification, because I don't think it is in light of a human life being ended.
            That has been my point all along - you don't have to agree with a position to actually understand and articulate what it is.


            And BTW unlike the pro-life position which can be clearly set forth the pro-choice position is often reliant on personal subjective needs or wants.
            The pro-life position can be clearly set forth by someone who understands it, yes. As can the pro-choice position, if one actually knew and understood it.

            And I don't think that expressing genuine shock at your lack of knowledge and understanding of an opposing position you've argued against for over a decade is a derail. I saw more than a one sentence response and I was hoping finally for a little meat, but t'was not to be, it seems.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by seer View Post

              Yes and they are tasty! So?
              That does not seem to bother you unduly; yet you express condemnation towards women who have abortions.

              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                That does not seem to bother you unduly; yet you express condemnation towards women who have abortions.
                Of course a pig is not a human being. And as humans we generally value others humans more than animals - as I'm sure you do...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                  Bodily autonomy is an argument that works even if the fetus is considered to be a person with a right to life.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defe...#The_violinist
                  The Violinist Argument, huh?


                  The problem with that analogy lies with the manner in which the violinist is being kept alive. Can the woman stab the violinist in the heart and kill him before removing the tubes? Can she smother him causing his death before removing the method of his sustainment? Can she starve him to death? Pregnancy is not an extraordinary method of sustainment. It is basic, natural, and as old as humanity itself. Like the violinist, an infant is not entitled to extraordinary life-saving interventions, but he is entitled to ordinary sustenance. This includes the baseline level of care necessary for ordinary survival—food, water, oxygen, warmth, etc.—from those responsible for him. Parents who fatally neglect their young children are guilty of killing them, not just letting them die. Regardless of whether the parents want or ever wanted those children, the law understands that they have a primary responsibility to provide the ordinary sustenance to which young children are entitled. If unborn children have the same personhood status as infants, then they should be accorded the same rights. Since the placenta represents the ordinary means by which a fetus obtains food, water, oxygen, and warmth, it follows that he should have the right to remain in his mother’s womb until viability, even if she does not want him there.

                  https://prolife.stanford.edu/qanda/q2-2.html

                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by seer View Post

                    Yes and they are tasty! So?
                    She can't say a word about what we eat without answering the question, "does she eat murdered babies?".

                    Her question is just stupid and has no bearing on the subject of abortion.


                    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by EvoUK View Post

                      And I don't think that expressing genuine shock at your lack of knowledge and understanding of an opposing position you've argued against for over a decade is a derail. I saw more than a one sentence response and I was hoping finally for a little meat, but t'was not to be, it seems.
                      This exercise is about one thing, to bolster your fragile ego. Good grief man, even if I didn't grasp the pro-choice arguments I could easily find them on line and regurgitate them. And the fact that this thread is about one of their main arguments should make the point.

                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Good grief man, even if I didn't grasp the pro-choice arguments I could easily find them on line and regurgitate them.
                        This thread is premised on a question you should already know the answer to. In fact, if you did know the response already, you would be able to formulate a more effective question and begin a more interesting discussion. After all this time and all the discussions you've had, you shouldn't need to look them up online.

                        You've already admitted you 'don't care' about understanding pro-choice arguments (which would help you argue more effectively against them as I've pointed out). You've also proven that even if you did get someone pro-choice to jump through your simplistic badgering, you'd forget their answers almost immediately because you weren't paying attention and have no interest in expanding your knowledge base. That's technically your problem, but it also means you'll be back asking the same simplistic questions and making the same simplistic points as though the discussion had never happened before we know it. So what's the point of anyone engaging?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                          Look at the definition you provided (which is a layman's definition and not scientific, but it still makes the point), and note the word "organism". Sperm and ovum are not organisms and are therefore not life by definition.
                          I'd be interested in the "scientific" definition of "life" and "organism". I looked up "organism" (admittedly Wiki, but no point taking it too far until I have your definitions) and got this.


                          In biology, an organism (from Ancient Greek ὄργανον (órganon) 'instrument, implement, tool', and -ισμός (-ismós)) is any organic, living system that functions as an individual entity.[1] All organisms are composed of cells (cell theory).[1] Organisms are classified by taxonomy into groups such as multicellular animals, plants, and fungi; or unicellular microorganisms such as protists, bacteria, and archaea.[2]All types of organisms are capable of reproduction, growth and development, maintenance, and some degree of response to stimuli. Beetles, squids, tetrapods, mushrooms, and vascular plants are examples of multicellular organisms that differentiate specialized tissues and organs during development.


                          Bolding at [2] mine.

                          It supports your exclusion of sperm and (unfertilized) ovum, but would seem to exclude a fertilized ovum too. I doubt the fertilized ovum can respond to stimuli, and it certainly can't reproduce in the sense that is meant, which would be producing another organism like itself.

                          This may seem trivial, but if you and others like you could agree on that point it would allow a number of things that stand in the way of agreement, like wanting to ban methods of contraception that (can) prevent implantation. And we are in desperate need of some movement toward the center or this will go on for ever.

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                          • #58
                            The average Joe on the street might not have a detailed understanding of the ins and outs of this topic - or any other topic that is discussed online here on a regular recurring basis - but none of you have that excuse. You've all been heavily exposed over the years to the opposing arguments, theories and positions. You don't have to find them persuasive or agree with them, but you absolutely should have a solid basic knowledge of these topics from both angles. That you don't is astounding and only reflects poorly on you. Now I'm wondering which other posters have also made a conscious decision to close their minds and pay no attention. It puts a lot of threads in a different context, when I had originally assumed any ignorance of opposing positions was feigned to make a partisan point.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by EvoUK View Post

                              This thread is premised on a question you should already know the answer to. In fact, if you did know the response already, you would be able to formulate a more effective question and begin a more interesting discussion. After all this time and all the discussions you've had, you shouldn't need to look them up online.

                              You've already admitted you 'don't care' about understanding pro-choice arguments (which would help you argue more effectively against them as I've pointed out). You've also proven that even if you did get someone pro-choice to jump through your simplistic badgering, you'd forget their answers almost immediately because you weren't paying attention and have no interest in expanding your knowledge base. That's technically your problem, but it also means you'll be back asking the same simplistic questions and making the same simplistic points as though the discussion had never happened before we know it. So what's the point of anyone engaging?
                              No, I don't care about making a list to basically satisfy you. Now please leave my thread...
                              Last edited by seer; 05-14-2022, 02:29 PM.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                No, I don't care about making a list to basically satisfy you. Now please leave my thread...
                                So you've admitted that you don't know or understand the arguments you've supposedly been arguing against for years, despite the time and effort others have put in to explain this to you. I do hope someone who is pro-choice takes you up on the offer for this thread, and you actually retain the information this time.

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