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Abortion and Bodily Autonomy

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    Well no, you said it was not a human life or person before it had experience of the world.
    Sorry. Let me clear that up. Not of the world, as in the physical world out here, but in the world of the outside of the entity itself. At some point in the development of the human in utero, the first spark of the experience of undifferentiated existence emerges. Put simply, the first spark of perception, which entails a stand alone perceiving entity. Before that spark, while it may be considered a human life, it is completely void of any human experience. Once this spark takes place, the fetus will experience what it is like to be a human at that stage of development. At each subsequent stage of development, there will be a human experience of what it is like to be at that stage, and so on.

    At the point of this spark, there emerges, an "in here" and an "out there", a dichotomy that is the most fundamental structure of the human psyche. Where/when this happens is not clear, but I think that it's safe to say that in between fertilization and implantation, at least, there is no entity having any experience in any sense.

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    • Originally posted by seer View Post

      Sorry, I loved my dogs, miss them more sometimes than friends that have passed, but if I knew the death of Daisy (my present beast) would really save a human life (even if was a complete stranger) Daisy would be gone. I have a just God to whom I am accountable.
      That's true dedication, and I truly appreciate that.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

        Sorry. Let me clear that up. Not of the world, as in the physical world out here, but in the world of the outside of the entity itself. At some point in the development of the human in utero, the first spark of the experience of undifferentiated existence emerges. Put simply, the first spark of perception, which entails a stand alone perceiving entity. Before that spark, while it may be considered a human life, it is completely void of any human experience. Once this spark takes place, the fetus will experience what it is like to be a human at that stage of development. At each subsequent stage of development, there will be a human experience of what it is like to be at that stage, and so on.

        At the point of this spark, there emerges, an "in here" and an "out there", a dichotomy that is the most fundamental structure of the human psyche. Where/when this happens is not clear, but I think that it's safe to say that in between fertilization and implantation, at least, there is no entity having any experience in any sense.
        So when does that spark happen? Before or after birth?
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          Bear in mind my original remark.
          You are all tricky!

          280686491_10224939860898051_8022453481752970664_n.jpg
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post

            Sorry, I loved my dogs, miss them more sometimes than friends that have passed, but if I knew the death of Daisy (my present beast) would really save a human life (even if was a complete stranger) Daisy would be gone. I have a just God to whom I am accountable.
            I did say most people.

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            • Originally posted by Alien View Post

              I'd be interested in the "scientific" definition of "life" and "organism". I looked up "organism" (admittedly Wiki, but no point taking it too far until I have your definitions) and got this.


              In biology, an organism (from Ancient Greek ὄργανον (órganon) 'instrument, implement, tool', and -ισμός (-ismós)) is any organic, living system that functions as an individual entity.[1] All organisms are composed of cells (cell theory).[1] Organisms are classified by taxonomy into groups such as multicellular animals, plants, and fungi; or unicellular microorganisms such as protists, bacteria, and archaea.[2]All types of organisms are capable of reproduction, growth and development, maintenance, and some degree of response to stimuli. Beetles, squids, tetrapods, mushrooms, and vascular plants are examples of multicellular organisms that differentiate specialized tissues and organs during development.


              Bolding at [2] mine.

              It supports your exclusion of sperm and (unfertilized) ovum, but would seem to exclude a fertilized ovum too. I doubt the fertilized ovum can respond to stimuli, and it certainly can't reproduce in the sense that is meant, which would be producing another organism like itself.

              This may seem trivial, but if you and others like you could agree on that point it would allow a number of things that stand in the way of agreement, like wanting to ban methods of contraception that (can) prevent implantation. And we are in desperate need of some movement toward the center or this will go on for ever.
              A fertilized ovum is a complete new human organism. A sperm or unfertilized egg are not, they only have half of the DNA needed for a human being to exist. Only when combined do you have the complete DNA of a new human being that can develop and become an infant/teen/adult. At fertilization, a new organism, distinct from either of the parents is created. At best, a sperm or unfertilized egg is part of the host organism, just like one of your skin cells is part of you, instead of a new organism.
              Last edited by Sparko; 05-16-2022, 10:46 AM.

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              • Originally posted by Alien View Post

                Rubbish.

                First, "after-birth abortion" is an oxymoron.

                Second, who are these "leftists" that don't think a baby is a person? Though some kooks can be found that believe just about any weird thing you can name, I'll bet it would be a tiny minority that would be roundly condemned by "leftists".

                As far as the article is concerned, it's silly because a major factor has changed. The mother is no longer required for the continued life of the child, and her needs no longer have to be considered.
                Have you met Starlight?

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                • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                  It is nice to have this one small area of commonality with you. I only have one "indoor" kitty, and that is because she's a territorial punk who will not tolerate her adopted sister. Indoor kitty sleeps with me -- sometimes in the crook of my arm, sometimes on my chest, sometimes beside my head. She seems to be gradually getting over her preference for sleeping by my butt or on my crotch.
                  Well as one English writer and poet noted "Cats sleep anywhere"!

                  The latter position must be somewhat uncomfortable for you. I do hope she does not "treadle" or as one of my friends refers to it "play the organ" - perhaps not an overly appropriate metaphor given her position on that particular part of your anatomy!
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

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                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Right, arbitrariness works well in life, and law, and science, and math, and logic, etc...
                    The least arbitrary points are conception and birth.

                    Since neither of them makes any sense (it is at least as idiotic to claim that a fertilized ovum has rights that overrule an adult human's rights as it is to say that a healthy full-term fetus has no right to life), I vote for an arbitrary point in between.

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                    • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                      The least arbitrary points are conception and birth.

                      Since neither of them makes any sense (it is at least as idiotic to claim that a fertilized ovum has rights that overrule an adult human's rights as it is to say that a healthy full-term fetus has no right to life), I vote for an arbitrary point in between.
                      Well if it is a human then it deserves human rights. Don't you believe that all humans deserve human rights?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post

                        Well if it is a human then it deserves human rights. Don't you believe that all humans deserve human rights?
                        I believe there is a difference between "human" (adjective) and "a human" (noun); the latter being more or less synonymous with "person".

                        The fertilized ovum is human, but is not (IMHO) a human. There is more to being a human than having a complete set of human DNA.

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                        • So, thinking about this from a different perspective, since you pro-choice folks are ok with a woman walking away from their parental responsibilities during pregnancy, can a guy give up his during pregnancy and not be required by law to pay child support for the following 24 years?
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          - Stephen R. Donaldson

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                          • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                            I believe there is a difference between "human" (adjective) and "a human" (noun); the latter being more or less synonymous with "person".

                            The fertilized ovum is human, but is not (IMHO) a human. There is more to being a human than having a complete set of human DNA.
                            Sorry, it is 'a human' at that particular state of development. And what is the more that you speak of?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post

                              So when does that spark happen? Before or after birth?
                              Can't say. But I think it's safe to say, for now at least, that it's not there in between fertilization and implantation. I would imagine it's the moment when some entity begins to perceive something, even if that something is nothing more than an amniotic bliss. From the moment of conception to the implantation, I am saying that no entity is having any experience, of any qualia, in any sense. Now it could be, but that is for another thread. Right now, I am only proposing that no experience is taking place within the small window that I have defined, and taking a look at the implications of such an assumption.

                              Now, I am only thinking about the morality of a pill that would block the fertilized egg from implanting. A married woman and her husband, for instance, don't think they are financially ready for a child, so instead of taking birth control hormones, she takes a pill that blocks fertilized eggs from implanting.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                                Can't say. But I think it's safe to say, for now at least, that it's not there in between fertilization and implantation. I would imagine it's the moment when some entity begins to perceive something, even if that something is nothing more than an amniotic bliss. From the moment of conception to the implantation, I am saying that no entity is having any experience, of any qualia, in any sense. Now it could be, but that is for another thread. Right now, I am only proposing that no experience is taking place within the small window that I have defined, and taking a look at the implications of such an assumption.

                                Now, I am only thinking about the morality of a pill that would block the fertilized egg from implanting. A married woman and her husband, for instance, don't think they are financially ready for a child, so instead of taking birth control hormones, she takes a pill that blocks fertilized eggs from implanting.
                                Did you know that there is literally a spark of light when an egg is fertilized?

                                https://www.sciencealert.com/scienti...m-meets-an-egg

                                At the point of conception the egg and sperm go from being two pieces of two people into a brand new human being. Who will then develop into an adult one day, barring any accidents or intentional harm.

                                Every human being's right to life trump's another human beings right for "convenience" or "comfort" - You can't kill someone just because they might cause you discomfort for a few months or be a burden to you. A mother can't just kill her infant because it is keeping her up at night crying, can she? Neither should a mother be able to kill her fetus just because she doesn't want to be a mother or it is inconvenient to her.

                                I think the only time a mother's right's trump's her fetus's is if the fetus is endangering her life. Then it would be a case of self defense. The fetus cannot survive without the mother, and the mother could die if she doesn't abort, so the mother's right to life wins over the fetus's right to life. If there is a way to save both by say, a C-section premature birth, then that is what should happen.


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