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Abortion and Bodily Autonomy

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  • #31
    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

    The only place bodily autonomy really stops is when liberals want to mandate vaccines. Then they support everything short of holding you down.
    What makes you think they would not be completely in favor of even that? I believe there's a sizable portion that would support putting people like me in a gulag.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by seer View Post

      That is irrational, of course it is a life, a human life.
      Do you eat commercially/industrially produced meat?
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        Do you eat commercially/industrially produced meat?
        Yep, though I prefer locally raised beef and pork.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by seer View Post

          If it is not a human life, what is it? A plant?
          It's really weird- there's lots of abortion threads currently going on, and I know full well that most, if not all of the pro forced-birthers have had several discussions on this topic in the past.

          Given that fact, it's utterly astounding that almost none of you can actually articulate what the pro-choice position even is. I vehemently disagree with you, but I can at least articulate what your argument and position is, even though I think it's bonkers.

          The above comment works when you're preaching to the pro forced-birth choir, but not when you're actually speaking to a pro choice person. If you actually understood their position, you'd know the above is irrelevant, and you'd know why- even if you disagreed with it.


          I'm not picking on you in particular, it's very common on here. I wonder if you've all spent this entire time not understanding or grasping the opposing position, or if strawmen and obtuseness is a result of the right wing echo chamber in here.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by EvoUK View Post

            It's really weird- there's lots of abortion threads currently going on, and I know full well that most, if not all of the pro forced-birthers have had several discussions on this topic in the past.

            Given that fact, it's utterly astounding that almost none of you can actually articulate what the pro-choice position even is. I vehemently disagree with you, but I can at least articulate what your argument and position is, even though I think it's bonkers.

            The above comment works when you're preaching to the pro forced-birth choir, but not when you're actually speaking to a pro choice person. If you actually understood their position, you'd know the above is irrelevant, and you'd know why- even if you disagreed with it.


            I'm not picking on you in particular, it's very common on here. I wonder if you've all spent this entire time not understanding or grasping the opposing position, or if strawmen and obtuseness is a result of the right wing echo chamber in here.
            What are you talking about - the pro-death position is that a woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by seer View Post

              What are you talking about - the pro-death [sic] position is that a woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy.
              But can you explain why, and outline it in more detail- and why therefore your point about 'human life' isn't relevant? I can sum up the pro forced birth position in a simplistic sentence like you have done, but that's all it'll be- overly simplistic and unhelpful.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by EvoUK View Post

                But can you explain why, and outline it in more detail- and why therefore your point about 'human life' isn't relevant? I can sum up the pro forced birth position in a simplistic sentence like you have done, but that's all it'll be- overly simplistic and unhelpful.
                I have no idea what you are asking. Please rephrase...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  I have no idea what you are asking. Please rephrase...
                  If you fully understood the pro-choice position, you'd understand that the 'it's a human life' argument is irrelevant, and you'd understand why - even if you disagreed with it.

                  'A woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy' is technically correct, but is too simplistic and leaves out all the nuance.

                  For example, I can say your position is simply 'abortion is immoral', but that too is overly simplistic and leaves out any nuance.

                  A longer form version of the pro-birth position would be:
                  • The terms human life and human being are essentially synonymous. They mean an alive, genetically distinct human organism.
                  • Human life is of value and worth protecting in almost all circumstances.
                  • Human life by the above definition begins at conception.
                  • Left alone, an embryo in the womb will develop into a baby, and is just a human life at early stages of development, morally equal to a human life any any other stage of development.
                  • There is no real moral difference between a zygote, embryo, early foetus, late foetus, new-born, toddler, adolescent, adult, pensioner.
                  • Therefore it is equally morally abhorrent to abort/kill an embryo as it would be to kill a toddler.
                  • Spontaneous abortion or miscarriage is just nature and doesn't count.
                  • Because we know that there is a non-zero chance of pregnancy occurring due to sex - regardless of any protection used - by deciding to have sex, the woman opts into accepting that a pregnancy is possible, and therefore she is morally required to carry it to term, regardless of any cost to herself.
                  • Most often, the discussion revolves around single women having sex. The situations of women in stable long term relationships including marriage not wanting to become pregnant don't often come up in examples given for the above point, but the argument remains the same regardless - she opted to have sex, so is morally required to carry it to term.
                  • The risks, both mental and physical of pregnancy largely aren't discussed unless pushed in discussion, but in any case is a 'lesser evil' than deciding to abort.
                  • There are often exceptions made for pregnancies at major risk to the woman (where it could result in death, 'regular' risks during pregnancy don't count), and often but not always exceptions are made for rape and incest, though this varies depending on the individual.
                  • Once the baby is born, if the woman does not want it, she can give it up for adoption. Details on this process are largely vague. State provided assistance to women and unwanted children are largely frowned upon, but again this varies by individual.
                  • Positions on war, death penalty, police shootings, etc. etc. vary by individual, though a distinction is often made with zygotes to foetuses that they are 'innocent', so different to other killings of human beings which they might find acceptable.

                  Obviously, I disagree with the above position, but I can at least articulate it dispassionately. Can you do the same for the pro-choice position, without straw manning it?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                    The only place bodily autonomy really stops is when liberals want to mandate vaccines. Then they support everything short of holding you down.
                    And they would happily support even that, if they thought the state could get away with it.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                      This whole discussion would be funny if the topic were not so serious.

                      We can't agree on the most basic of first principles -- what is "life," what is a "person," etc. -- so we are parsecs away from a resolution.
                      It was "settled science" for centuries that life begins at conception. We only started hearing the "lump of cells" and "personhood" nonsense when liberals wanted to rationalize the horror of abortion.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by EvoUK View Post

                        If you fully understood the pro-choice position, you'd understand that the 'it's a human life' argument is irrelevant, and you'd understand why - even if you disagreed with it.

                        'A woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy' is technically correct, but is too simplistic and leaves out all the nuance.

                        For example, I can say your position is simply 'abortion is immoral', but that too is overly simplistic and leaves out any nuance.

                        A longer form version of the pro-birth position would be:
                        Right and most of those distinctions have been discussed on this board.


                        Obviously, I disagree with the above position, but I can at least articulate it dispassionately. Can you do the same for the pro-choice position, without straw manning it?
                        I don't know any single pro-death position, do you? Except that it should be legal to terminate, pretty much at will. But go ahead and school us.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          I don't know any single pro-death [sic] position, do you? Except that it should be legal to terminate, pretty much at will. But go ahead and school us.
                          You mean, can I articulate my own position on abortion? Yes, obviously.

                          It is genuinely surprising and shameful that after so long discussing it, you're unable to do so. You honestly cannot articulate any pro-choice arguments or positions in an honest and dispassionate way? I've been on these boards for many years - back to Bush Jnrs first term, so I know for a fact that you've had a huge number of discussions over the years with many different pro-choice posters, so none of this should be news to you, and you should know all the arguments back to front.

                          That you don't know any pro-choice positions other than an over simplified position merely shows your own lack of intellectual curiosity. No wonder you go through the same tropes again and again. I thought (obviously generously) that you were merely trolling, not that you genuinely had no idea at all.



                          Can anyone else lay out the pro-choice position as I have done for the pro-life one, or are you all equally unable to do so?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by seer View Post

                            Yep, though I prefer locally raised beef and pork.
                            Then you engage in consuming sentient creatures that have a degree of what we term intelligence, and can feel pain and fear.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by EvoUK View Post

                              You mean, can I articulate my own position on abortion? Yes, obviously.

                              No, I just don't care. Don't you think that over the years that I haven't heard every justification? If you have something new to add feel free.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                Then you engage in consuming sentient creatures that have a degree of what we term intelligence, and can feel pain and fear.
                                Yes and they are tasty! So?
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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