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Abortion and Bodily Autonomy

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  • #16
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    One thing that I'm having a hard time following in this debate is why some believe that a woman's bodily autonomy is a greater good, or more important, than a human life? What is the justification for that specific hierarchy of values?
    Bodily autonomy is an argument that works even if the fetus is considered to be a person with a right to life.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defe...#The_violinist

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

      Life begins at conception. This is not an opinion or belief but a scientific fact.
      The ovum is alive, and the sperm is alive, so it's fair to say that life begins before conception.

      I would say that life began about 4 billion years ago, and has continued uninterrupted ever since.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Stoic View Post

        The ovum is alive, and the sperm is alive, so it's fair to say that life begins before conception.

        I would say that life began about 4 billion years ago, and has continued uninterrupted ever since.
        Sperm and ovum are alive, in a sense, but they are not, scientifically speaking, life.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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        • #19
          It is possible, I have read, to actually fertilize a human egg with a human sperm, in a laboratory. That means you can create life in a lab.

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          • #20
            The actual estimated time that it takes for the sperm to travel to the egg and fertilize is around six days after intercourse. Why can't a drug be designed that simply blocks the sperm from reaching the egg in the first place?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              Sperm and ovum are alive, in a sense, but they are not, scientifically speaking, life.
              That which is alive, is life. By definition.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                That which is alive, is life. By definition.
                I will address this:

                A sperm is not a life because it won't grow into anything. A life has to grow and continue growing. The sperm is definitely active, and it carries information, but it's not alive like a fertilized egg is alive. There is a clear distinction there I think.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                  Sperm and ovum are alive, in a sense, but they are not, scientifically speaking, life.

                  life

                  noun
                  1. The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
                  2. The characteristic state or condition of a living organism.
                  3. Living organisms considered as a group.

                  So, life is either a property (that which distinguishes something from something dead), or a general term to describe all living organisms (life on Earth).

                  In other words, every cell of my body has not is life, or I as a living organism am part of all life. I don't see that either definition fits the way you are using the word.

                  There is a way of defining what I think you mean, which is that the fertilized ovum has the potential, given the right environment, to become a fully formed human being. I have a feeling though that definition doesn't do what you want. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                    The actual estimated time that it takes for the sperm to travel to the egg and fertilize is around six days after intercourse. Why can't a drug be designed that simply blocks the sperm from reaching the egg in the first place?
                    Sperm can reach the egg within about 30 minutes. Or they can hang around waiting for the egg to arrive for five days or so.

                    Most emergency contraception methods prevent or delay ovulation, so if the woman has just ovulated, they aren't going to work.

                    Copper-releasing IUDs prevent fertilization, but they also probably prevent implantation, which would make them unacceptable to some people.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                      I will address this:

                      A sperm is not a life because it won't grow into anything. A life has to grow and continue growing.
                      It doesn't have to continue growing indefinitely. I know I didn't, and I'm pretty sure I'm alive.

                      The sperm is definitely active, and it carries information, but it's not alive like a fertilized egg is alive. There is a clear distinction there I think.
                      The sperm will never grow into a human being, while the fertilized egg might, under the right conditions.

                      But I don't think that's material to the question of when life begins. It's particularly immaterial to the question of when personhood begins.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                        It's particularly immaterial to the question of when personhood begins.
                        I see where you're coming from. Life was already there and is all around us. It started 4 billion years ago. Sperm has life, zygotes have life. Everything that is alive, even in some sense, has life. Personhood is another matter altogether.

                        When do you think personhood begins?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Alien View Post


                          life

                          noun
                          1. The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
                          2. The characteristic state or condition of a living organism.
                          3. Living organisms considered as a group.

                          So, life is either a property (that which distinguishes something from something dead), or a general term to describe all living organisms (life on Earth).

                          In other words, every cell of my body has not is life, or I as a living organism am part of all life. I don't see that either definition fits the way you are using the word.

                          There is a way of defining what I think you mean, which is that the fertilized ovum has the potential, given the right environment, to become a fully formed human being. I have a feeling though that definition doesn't do what you want. Correct me if I'm wrong.
                          Look at the definition you provided (which is a layman's definition and not scientific, but it still makes the point), and note the word "organism". Sperm and ovum are not organisms and are therefore not life by definition.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                            Bodily autonomy is an argument that works even if the fetus is considered to be a person with a right to life.

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defe...#The_violinist
                            Unless you are speaking of rape it doesn't work. Every woman knows what could happen when engaged in sex. Second, with violinist you would be just letting him die a natural death, he is dying already.The child is a living and growing being and will live if allowed. But let me ask Stoic, if one was forcibly hooked up to violinist to save his life why would that be wrong? Why would 9 months of your freedom trump his life?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                              Bodily autonomy is an argument that works even if the fetus is considered to be a person with a right to life.

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defe...#The_violinist
                              The only place bodily autonomy really stops is when liberals want to mandate vaccines. Then they support everything short of holding you down.

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                              • #30
                                This whole discussion would be funny if the topic were not so serious.

                                We can't agree on the most basic of first principles -- what is "life," what is a "person," etc. -- so we are parsecs away from a resolution.
                                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                                Beige Federalist.

                                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                                Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                                Justice for Matthew Perna!

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