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Abortion and Bodily Autonomy

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  • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

    Yes, the punishment for sin, the suffering, etc. I get that point. That is the point you were wanting to make, and I saw that very clearly. It's just that it's not a valid point. These trillions of perishing souls...who is suffering? No one. It's just a silent march of non-aware living souls to death. Not a single entity is suffering here, emotionally, or physically. It's just lives being created, then quickly ending, everyday, all day long, escaping everyone's notice. It is a ridiculous notion that God is creating innumerable souls only to be casually washed away a few days later. If this is a punishment for the fall in the garden, who exactly is being punished? The zygotes? It really doesn't matter that it's happening. It's only the absurd implications that even makes it worth talking about.
    You're basically asking why things aren't perfect in an imperfect world.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

      You're basically asking why things aren't perfect in an imperfect world.
      I can accept imperfection. Silliness is another topic altogether. The silly claim being made by some pro-life advocates, is that a woman who takes a pill and adds to this meaningless and insignificant stream of heaven bound zygotes is a murderer.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

        I can accept imperfection. Silliness is another topic altogether. The silly claim being made by some pro-life advocates, is that a woman who takes a pill and adds to this meaningless and insignificant stream of heaven bound zygotes is a murderer.
        I don't accept your premise that the souls of miscarried human lives in utero are "meaningless and insignificant".
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

          I can accept imperfection. Silliness is another topic altogether. The silly claim being made by some pro-life advocates, is that a woman who takes a pill and adds to this meaningless and insignificant stream of heaven bound zygotes is a murderer.
          Tell you what else is silly. The idea that God's perfect creation was made imperfect by one person disobeying one command one time. The original creation must have been very fragile.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

            I don't accept your premise that the souls of miscarried human lives in utero are "meaningless and insignificant".

            What meaning and significance are the 50 to 80 percent of the fertilized eggs that never successfully get implanted? Who are they meaningful to, do you think?

            Of course they're meaningful to God. That's why He wanted them back so quickly . Can you think of anyone else they're the least bit meaningful to?

            Again, I am only talking about the phase in between fertilization and implantation . See image.




            egg.JPG

            Last edited by Machinist; 05-20-2022, 03:36 PM.

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            • Originally posted by Alien View Post

              Tell you what else is silly. The idea that God's perfect creation was made imperfect by one person disobeying one command one time. The original creation must have been very fragile.
              God is Holy.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Machinist View Post


                What meaning and significance are the 50 to 80 percent of the fertilized eggs that never successfully get implanted? Who are they meaningful to, do you think?

                Of course they're meaningful to God. That's why He wanted them back so quickly . Can you think of anyone else they're the least bit meaningful to?
                Is being significant and meaningful to God not sufficient in and of itself?

                You're also continuing to ask this question as if miscarriages are all part of God's perfect creation when I think it's obvious they're not. Do you think Eve would have ever had a miscarriage before the Fall?

                I'm not entirely sure why you're so resistant to this. Are you afraid heaven is going to fill up before you get there?
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                  God is Holy.
                  Now you've lost me.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                    Is being significant and meaningful to God not sufficient in and of itself?

                    You're also continuing to ask this question as if miscarriages are all part of God's perfect creation when I think it's obvious they're not. Do you think Eve would have ever had a miscarriage before the Fall?

                    I'm not entirely sure why you're so resistant to this. Are you afraid heaven is going to fill up before you get there?
                    Just to butt in, he's talking about fertilized ova before implantation, not miscarriages. And Eve didn't have sex before the fall, did she?

                    Once again the point is to imagine all these ova going past God and he's kind of stamping souls on to them. Then most of them fail to implant and, I don't know, the souls detach when the ovum dies and, then what? Does God put them back on the shelf or something?

                    Yes, it's very silly, but it points up the silliness of thinking that an unimplanted ovum has a soul and thus has to be protected. Obviously there's a lot of simple explanations, like God doesn't ensoul those that will die (He would know that), but it opens a time when abortion might be OK, people don't want that.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                      Is being significant and meaningful to God not sufficient in and of itself?

                      There is nothing we can do about the 50 to 80 percent of fertilized eggs that die. If they have any value and significance to God, then they have a role and function that we can't even begin to conceive of. Maybe some final tweaking of the Divine process of Soul Making perhaps? One final technical patch?

                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      You're also continuing to ask this question as if miscarriages are all part of God's perfect creation when I think it's obvious they're not. Do you think Eve would have ever had a miscarriage before the Fall?
                      Well, if she did, then she didn't know (again, talking about the phase between fertilization through implantation) . I'm not so sure that these miscarriages of fertilized eggs are necessarily a bad thing, just part of the natural biological process of human life. As I said, no one, not one single entity suffers anything emotional or physical when one of these eggs fails to implant. It is obvious that it's a natural process that takes place far beneath any awareness.

                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      I'm not entirely sure why you're so resistant to this.


                      It smacks of dogma. I don't want my position and opinion of this issue to be based on dogma.


                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      Are you afraid heaven is going to fill up before you get there?
                      No. I'm just afraid I might step on one.
                      Last edited by Machinist; 05-21-2022, 07:38 AM.

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                      • Sorry about the format above. I'm not sure what happened here.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Alien View Post

                          Just to butt in, he's talking about fertilized ova before implantation, not miscarriages. And Eve didn't have sex before the fall, did she?

                          Once again the point is to imagine all these ova going past God and he's kind of stamping souls on to them. Then most of them fail to implant and, I don't know, the souls detach when the ovum dies and, then what? Does God put them back on the shelf or something?

                          Yes, it's very silly, but it points up the silliness of thinking that an unimplanted ovum has a soul and thus has to be protected. Obviously there's a lot of simple explanations, like God doesn't ensoul those that will die (He would know that), but it opens a time when abortion might be OK, people don't want that.
                          Testing. Hi Alien.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Alien View Post

                            Just to butt in, he's talking about fertilized ova before implantation, not miscarriages. And Eve didn't have sex before the fall, did she?

                            Once again the point is to imagine all these ova going past God and he's kind of stamping souls on to them. Then most of them fail to implant and, I don't know, the souls detach when the ovum dies and, then what? Does God put them back on the shelf or something?

                            Yes, it's very silly, but it points up the silliness of thinking that an unimplanted ovum has a soul and thus has to be protected. Obviously there's a lot of simple explanations, like God doesn't ensoul those that will die (He would know that), but it opens a time when abortion might be OK, people don't want that.
                            What makes you think Adam and Eve never had sex before the fall?

                            I also can not reason out how there is any meaningful difference between an ovum one second before implantation, and one second after.

                            Certainly in a perfect world, every fertilized egg would grow into a fully developed human individual, but we don't live in a perfect world. And since we don't actually know precisely when "ensoulment" happens (scripture suggests that it might even precede conception, Jeremiah 1:5), I think it's best to err on the side that doesn't involve committing murder if we're wrong.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment




                            • I agree that it's best to err on the side that doesn't commit murder.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                                What makes you think Adam and Eve never had sex before the fall?
                                I thought it was kind of a given. She didn't have children. The "apple" thing was a sort of sideways reference to sexual awareness. They became aware of their nakedness. I'm no expert on this, it's just what I've always thought was believed. Anyone like to jump in on this? I'd find it interesting as I'll bet there's differences of opinion.

                                I also can not reason out how there is any meaningful difference between an ovum one second before implantation, and one second after.
                                Within this rather silly discussion, pre-implantation it's not known if the egg will, well, implant. And according to Machinist, the pre-implanted ovum has an 80% chance of getting flushed away, so to speak.

                                Certainly in a perfect world, every fertilized egg would grow into a fully developed human individual, but we don't live in a perfect world. And since we don't actually know precisely when "ensoulment" happens (scripture suggests that it might even precede conception, Jeremiah 1:5), I think it's best to err on the side that doesn't involve committing murder if we're wrong.
                                I don't want to keep putting words into Machinist's mouth, but his argument depends on the claim that ensoulment happens before implantation. If we don't know when it is, it all becomes moot. If before fertilization it's even more applicable as lots of eggs (the large majority) don't get fertilized. I'm assuming that's what you mean by "conception".

                                Incidentally, my personal world view doesn't include Adam and Eve or the Fall, but that's the framework within which Machinist is arguing, so I've assumed it for the sake of argument.

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