Originally posted by Machinist
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Abortion and Bodily Autonomy
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
You're basically asking why things aren't perfect in an imperfect world.
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Originally posted by Machinist View Post
I can accept imperfection. Silliness is another topic altogether. The silly claim being made by some pro-life advocates, is that a woman who takes a pill and adds to this meaningless and insignificant stream of heaven bound zygotes is a murderer.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Machinist View Post
I can accept imperfection. Silliness is another topic altogether. The silly claim being made by some pro-life advocates, is that a woman who takes a pill and adds to this meaningless and insignificant stream of heaven bound zygotes is a murderer.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
I don't accept your premise that the souls of miscarried human lives in utero are "meaningless and insignificant".
What meaning and significance are the 50 to 80 percent of the fertilized eggs that never successfully get implanted? Who are they meaningful to, do you think?
Of course they're meaningful to God. That's why He wanted them back so quickly . Can you think of anyone else they're the least bit meaningful to?
Again, I am only talking about the phase in between fertilization and implantation . See image.
egg.JPG
Last edited by Machinist; 05-20-2022, 03:36 PM.
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Originally posted by Machinist View Post
What meaning and significance are the 50 to 80 percent of the fertilized eggs that never successfully get implanted? Who are they meaningful to, do you think?
Of course they're meaningful to God. That's why He wanted them back so quickly . Can you think of anyone else they're the least bit meaningful to?
You're also continuing to ask this question as if miscarriages are all part of God's perfect creation when I think it's obvious they're not. Do you think Eve would have ever had a miscarriage before the Fall?
I'm not entirely sure why you're so resistant to this. Are you afraid heaven is going to fill up before you get there?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Is being significant and meaningful to God not sufficient in and of itself?
You're also continuing to ask this question as if miscarriages are all part of God's perfect creation when I think it's obvious they're not. Do you think Eve would have ever had a miscarriage before the Fall?
I'm not entirely sure why you're so resistant to this. Are you afraid heaven is going to fill up before you get there?
Once again the point is to imagine all these ova going past God and he's kind of stamping souls on to them. Then most of them fail to implant and, I don't know, the souls detach when the ovum dies and, then what? Does God put them back on the shelf or something?
Yes, it's very silly, but it points up the silliness of thinking that an unimplanted ovum has a soul and thus has to be protected. Obviously there's a lot of simple explanations, like God doesn't ensoul those that will die (He would know that), but it opens a time when abortion might be OK, people don't want that.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Is being significant and meaningful to God not sufficient in and of itself?
There is nothing we can do about the 50 to 80 percent of fertilized eggs that die. If they have any value and significance to God, then they have a role and function that we can't even begin to conceive of. Maybe some final tweaking of the Divine process of Soul Making perhaps? One final technical patch?
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYou're also continuing to ask this question as if miscarriages are all part of God's perfect creation when I think it's obvious they're not. Do you think Eve would have ever had a miscarriage before the Fall?
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI'm not entirely sure why you're so resistant to this.
It smacks of dogma. I don't want my position and opinion of this issue to be based on dogma.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAre you afraid heaven is going to fill up before you get there?Last edited by Machinist; 05-21-2022, 07:38 AM.
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Originally posted by Alien View Post
Just to butt in, he's talking about fertilized ova before implantation, not miscarriages. And Eve didn't have sex before the fall, did she?
Once again the point is to imagine all these ova going past God and he's kind of stamping souls on to them. Then most of them fail to implant and, I don't know, the souls detach when the ovum dies and, then what? Does God put them back on the shelf or something?
Yes, it's very silly, but it points up the silliness of thinking that an unimplanted ovum has a soul and thus has to be protected. Obviously there's a lot of simple explanations, like God doesn't ensoul those that will die (He would know that), but it opens a time when abortion might be OK, people don't want that.
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Originally posted by Alien View Post
Just to butt in, he's talking about fertilized ova before implantation, not miscarriages. And Eve didn't have sex before the fall, did she?
Once again the point is to imagine all these ova going past God and he's kind of stamping souls on to them. Then most of them fail to implant and, I don't know, the souls detach when the ovum dies and, then what? Does God put them back on the shelf or something?
Yes, it's very silly, but it points up the silliness of thinking that an unimplanted ovum has a soul and thus has to be protected. Obviously there's a lot of simple explanations, like God doesn't ensoul those that will die (He would know that), but it opens a time when abortion might be OK, people don't want that.
I also can not reason out how there is any meaningful difference between an ovum one second before implantation, and one second after.
Certainly in a perfect world, every fertilized egg would grow into a fully developed human individual, but we don't live in a perfect world. And since we don't actually know precisely when "ensoulment" happens (scripture suggests that it might even precede conception, Jeremiah 1:5), I think it's best to err on the side that doesn't involve committing murder if we're wrong.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
What makes you think Adam and Eve never had sex before the fall?
I also can not reason out how there is any meaningful difference between an ovum one second before implantation, and one second after.
Certainly in a perfect world, every fertilized egg would grow into a fully developed human individual, but we don't live in a perfect world. And since we don't actually know precisely when "ensoulment" happens (scripture suggests that it might even precede conception, Jeremiah 1:5), I think it's best to err on the side that doesn't involve committing murder if we're wrong.
Incidentally, my personal world view doesn't include Adam and Eve or the Fall, but that's the framework within which Machinist is arguing, so I've assumed it for the sake of argument.
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