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The issues surrounding the thorny topic of abortion

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  • The issues surrounding the thorny topic of abortion

    On another thread this comment was made concerning women who seek abortion.

    Originally posted by mossrose View Post

    Maybe she can afford condoms. Or better yet, don't sleep around so as not to get pregnant.


    I offered the following but was requested to leave that thread by the thread originator.

    I therefore offer it again to mossrose and anyone else who considers that women seek abortions simply because of their promiscuous lifestyles.

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Why the assumption that all women who seek abortions are promiscuous? This trailer is for a 2021 series made by the BBC concerning three real incidents in Northern Ireland between 2013 and 2019. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Families

    A young couple desperate to start a family find the foetus is badly deformed - the lungs have not developed - and the child will not survive after birth
    A devout Catholic mother obtains abortifacient pills on the internet for her teenage daughter who has become pregnant via an assault [rape] by her boyfriend
    A woman's foetus as Edwards syndrome and has died in utero but she is refused an abortion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s1w8THC7mA


    Unfortunately and despite recent legislation it still remains difficult to obtain an abortion in Northern Ireland. In Poland the situation is even worse with a near total ban on abortion, which [unsurprisingly] adversely impacts on poor women, those in rural areas or those who are marginalised.

    Is this the route the USA wishes to pursue?
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

  • #2
    I think you will find that most people who oppose abortion allow an exception for legitimate medical complications.

    In the third case, I don't see how rape justifies murdering an unborn child. The Bible tells us not to return evil for evil.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      I think you will find that most people who oppose abortion allow an exception for legitimate medical complications.
      That did not apply in the province of Northern Ireland as those recent incidents demonstrate.


      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      In the third case, I don't see how rape justifies murdering an unborn child. The Bible tells us not to return evil for evil.
      If the woman is offered an abortifacient within hours of the rape as a precaution [she may not even be pregnant] wherein lies the issue?

      However, why should a woman be compelled to go through a pregnancy and give birth to, the child of her assailant? What are her rights?

      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        That did not apply in the province of Northern Ireland as those recent incidents demonstrate.


        If the woman is offered an abortifacient within hours of the rape as a precaution [she may not even be pregnant] wherein lies the issue?

        However, why should a woman be compelled to go through a pregnancy and give birth to, the child of her assailant? What are her rights?
        A woman's rights do not extend to murdering an innocent human life, regardless of the circumstances of her pregnancy.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          That did not apply in the province of Northern Ireland as those recent incidents demonstrate.
          True


          If the woman is offered an abortifacient within hours of the rape as a precaution [she may not even be pregnant] wherein lies the issue?
          None that I can see.


          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
          "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            If the woman is offered an abortifacient within hours of the rape as a precaution [she may not even be pregnant] wherein lies the issue?

            None that I can see.
            Really? Even as a Christian, you don't see a problem with taking an action that can potentially result in the death of an innocent human life?

            In fact, an abortifacient is taken for one purpose only: to kill any unborn human life that exists, so even if a woman doesn't know she is pregnant, I can't see how she is not guilty of at least attempted murder.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #7
              Abortion is a really complicate issue, and the reasons are multitude for having one. Generally, the reasons range from the really selfish to genuine it's the best answer in a bad situation. To say there is one reason is a major oversimplification.

              As a Christian, I hope that someday abortions will end. I do recognize that it is not the unpardonable sin.

              As a realist living in the fallen world, I recognize that won't happen. My position on abortion is tolerable in the early months but as the pregnancy processes, the fetus gains the right to life. Thus, I oppose late term abortion and abortion on-demand.

              I also recognize that trying to legislate it out of existence isn't going to work.
              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                Really? Even as a Christian, you don't see a problem with taking an action that can potentially result in the death of an innocent human life?

                In fact, an abortifacient is taken for one purpose only: to kill any unborn human life that exists, so even if a woman doesn't know she is pregnant, I can't see how she is not guilty of at least attempted murder.
                No. "Within hours" taken to mean "within less than a full day" presents no difficulty: it takes 24+ hours for sperm and ovum to fuse and form a living cell.
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  No. "Within hours" taken to mean "within less than a full day" presents no difficulty: it takes 24+ hours for sperm and ovum to fuse and form a living cell.
                  Just a correction, it CAN take that long but it can also take minutes depending on sperm motility, conditions, etc..
                  "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
                  - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    No. "Within hours" taken to mean "within less than a full day" presents no difficulty: it takes 24+ hours for sperm and ovum to fuse and form a living cell.
                    Again, the only purpose of an abortifacient is to cause an abortion. There is literally no other reason for a woman to take one, so I can't see how she would not be guilty of at least attempted murder.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      On another thread this comment was made concerning women who seek abortion.



                      I offered the following but was requested to leave that thread by the thread originator.

                      I therefore offer it again to mossrose and anyone else who considers that women seek abortions simply because of their promiscuous lifestyles.
                      Some are women who seek abortions for that. Others are women who seek abortion because they engaged in sex and don't want the consequences because those consequences aren't convenient. Others are women who have been tricked by the pro-choice crowd into believing there is nothing wrong with abortion because that crowd has been so successful in dehumanizing unborn children. Some are a very small percentage of women with legitimate reasons (baby misdevelopment where they have no head, other severe issues, death of the fetus requiring extraction, serious threat to the mother's health/life, etc.).



                      Unfortunately and despite recent legislation it still remains difficult to obtain an abortion in Northern Ireland. In Poland the situation is even worse with a near total ban on abortion, which [unsurprisingly] adversely impacts on poor women, those in rural areas or those who are marginalised.

                      Is this the route the USA wishes to pursue?
                      It should never be an easy thing to obtain an abortion. Women shouldn't be able to pop by the local clinic and do a chain of abortions over a couple years (there literally are women who brag about doing so). If there are legitimate medical reasons that impact the life/longterm-health of the woman, that's feasible. I might even be willing to concede abortion for rapes if the other side were then willing to limit it only to that and serious medical reasons.
                      "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
                      - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                        Just a correction, it CAN take that long but it can also take minutes depending on sperm motility, conditions, etc..
                        Admittedly my information is decades old. I'll consider doing a follow up.
                        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                        "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                          Abortion is a really complicate issue, and the reasons are multitude for having one.
                          People try to make it complicated, but it's actually a very simple issue that can be summarized in a single question:

                          Is there anything that can justify killing an innocent human life?
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                            People try to make it complicated, but it's actually a very simple issue that can be summarized in a single question:

                            Is there anything that can justify killing an innocent human life?
                            No, there is no justification that I can come up with.

                            However, given the country we live in, I can't see how this can be legislated out of existence. Taking the legislative road makes for lazy Christians. It's certainly easier to change a relatively smaller number of legislators than 334.5 million hearts. Doing this via the political process will just create anger.

                            Also, look at how well Prohibition worked (it didn't) and how fast marijuana is being legalized. Christians need to worry more about changing hearts than laws.
                            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              I think you will find that most people who oppose abortion allow an exception for legitimate medical complications.
                              Some do - but only when specifically asked about medical complications, and they then promptly forget about them afterwards. Many do not, which is why the cases mentioned in the OP occurred.

                              The same is true for other extenuating circumstances such as rape.

                              Which is why conversations here and elsewhere typically proceed:
                              Simplistic prolifer: Abortion should be banned! Human life is sacred! Women should keep their legs together!
                              Responder: What about cases of rape?
                              Simplistic prolifer: Abortion should be banned except in cases of rape!
                              Responder: What about medical emergencies?
                              Simplistic prolifer: Abortion should be banned except in cases of rape and medical emergencies!
                              Responder: What about incest?
                              Simplistic prolifer: Abortion should be banned except in cases of rape and incest and medical emergencies!
                              Responder: What about foetuses that aren't viable enough to survive beyond birth? Or until birth? What about women who would commit suicide? What about the majority of fertilisations failing naturally? What about HeLa cells? What about the death penalty? What about drones?
                              Simplistic prolifer: [disappears]
                              ...
                              [time passes]
                              ...

                              Simplistic prolifer: Abortion should be banned! Human life is sacred! Women should keep their legs together!

                              Then there's the frequent
                              Hypocritical prolifer: Abortion should be banned! Human life is sacred! [Insert ethnicity] babies should be killed before they grow up to kill us!

                              Most of the conservative posters here aren't smart enough or honest enough for a rational discussion of the thorny issues surrounding abortion.
                              Last edited by Roy; 05-09-2022, 12:12 PM.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                              Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                              Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

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