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I expect pro abortion protests will quickly die out.

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  • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
    It's not unreasonable to wish that the human population was a lot smaller and under control. But that's not the same as wanting to cull the human population or eliminate it entirely.
    Pretty much all the demographic estimates I've seen project the world population to be flat or declining by 2100. I have literally never seen or heard anyone on the left wanting to cull the human population. It's laughable to pretend that's a remotely common position on the left even among extremists.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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    • I'm starting to wonder if we're wasting our time trying to logically argue our positions. I saw a viral infographic today arguing that the actual point of wanting to overturn Roe was to reinstitute slavery. That's so far off base that nobody could possibly provide any evidence for this claim, but that's just it - evidence is irrelevant, and pro-choice sentiment based on feeling is winning the court of public opinion. Someone can post that nonsense and get it reposted thousands of times, yet nobody will actually read or engage with thoughtful -pro-life arguments.

      Last edited by KingsGambit; 05-17-2022, 07:45 PM.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        And that aborted fetus could grow up to be the very person that makes those discoveries, Stoic. Or invent something that saves the planet.

        Weirdly, most who argue for abortion use utilitarian arguments - but in utilitarianism we would keep the baby. Might shoot the useless parents, however..
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

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        • Originally posted by Alien View Post

          Not to a turtle.

          I have to say, you need to compare like with like. Turtle eggs to human "eggs", hatched turtles to born humans and adult turtles to adult humans. In both cases there is huge wastage associated with the process. How many eggs does a pair of turtles produce in their lifetime. Probably thousands. How many mature turtles are required to maintain the population? Two. With humans it's about 50 eggs and two humans. We could argue that the value ratio of a turtle egg to a mature turtle is, say, 1/1000, and the ratio for humans is maybe 1/25. Now the logic so far may be a little contrived, but bear with me. It follows that the value of a mature woman is greater than that of an egg by 25 times, because she has beaten the odds of survival by that amount. To put it another way, to maintain the species we should protect the life of the female over the fetus by a factor of 25.
          You know this is dumb, right? If turtles were better parents, all those numbers would change. Also, the only eggs that matter are the fertilized ones. Humans only (normally) do one at a time. If turtles were likely to raise any given baby to adulthood, they wouldn't fertilize so many eggs.

          The math does not follow - because I can improve the turtle's survivability with an incubator and a little engineering. The number has nothing to do with value - it has to do with probability of survival.

          The turtle's survival matters to it - but my survival matters more to me. Turtle soup it is!

          Seriously, it's kinda stupid to argue value that way. Especially with an entree as your example of being more valuable than a human. Lifeguards abandon the cute little turtles and save the drowning people because human life has to be more valuable to humans if we are to survive as a species, let alone as a society.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

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          • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            I'm starting to wonder if we're wasting our time trying to logically argue our positions. I saw a viral infographic today arguing that the actual point of wanting to overturn Roe was to reinstitute slavery. That's so far off base that nobody could possibly provide any evidence for this claim, but that's just it - evidence is irrelevant, and pro-choice sentiment based on feeling is winning the court of public opinion. Someone can post that nonsense and get it reposted thousands of times, yet nobody will actually read or engage with thoughtful -pro-life arguments.
            In a word HECK NO!

            First off, viral on Twitland is not the same thing as a bunch of real people agreeing with the thing (bots, anyone? Not to mention the 'look at this stupidity' gang). Second, is just because truth is lagging behind lie doesn't mean that the race is over or that truth doesn't matter.

            The whole 'but no one changes their minds' thing is soooo wrong. It's like walking out the morning after planting and wondering why the crop isn't ready for harvest - let the seeds grow! Think about it - how often do you change your mind the very first time you're confronted with a different POV or understanding? Almost never, I'll bet. First you have to wrestle with it, decide if it's even worth considering, get distracted by real life, mull it over some more, try everything you can think of to defeat it, take the kids to school a few dozen times and then finally start thinking that maybe you might be less than right.

            Everyone goes through some variation of that most of the time. Changing (other peoples) minds instantaneously is something only the Holy Spirit does, and then only as He sees fit. We humans are supposed to be slow to change our minds - otherwise we'd change them like socks (okay, not like Rogue changes his, but you know what I mean) and be unable to get anywhere with anything - the double-minded man is unstable in all his ways, remember?

            It takes a long time - but it does happen. Reasoned arguments DO matter - but it's more like filling an aquifer than a pond. Ya gotta let it percolate!
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

              In a word HECK NO!

              First off, viral on Twitland is not the same thing as a bunch of real people agreeing with the thing (bots, anyone? Not to mention the 'look at this stupidity' gang). Second, is just because truth is lagging behind lie doesn't mean that the race is over or that truth doesn't matter.

              The whole 'but no one changes their minds' thing is soooo wrong. It's like walking out the morning after planting and wondering why the crop isn't ready for harvest - let the seeds grow! Think about it - how often do you change your mind the very first time you're confronted with a different POV or understanding? Almost never, I'll bet. First you have to wrestle with it, decide if it's even worth considering, get distracted by real life, mull it over some more, try everything you can think of to defeat it, take the kids to school a few dozen times and then finally start thinking that maybe you might be less than right.

              Everyone goes through some variation of that most of the time. Changing (other peoples) minds instantaneously is something only the Holy Spirit does, and then only as He sees fit. We humans are supposed to be slow to change our minds - otherwise we'd change them like socks (okay, not like Rogue changes his, but you know what I mean) and be unable to get anywhere with anything - the double-minded man is unstable in all his ways, remember?

              It takes a long time - but it does happen. Reasoned arguments DO matter - but it's more like filling an aquifer than a pond. Ya gotta let it percolate!
              One clarification: I don't have Twitter so I can't speak as to the dynamic there. However, I use Facebook and people I actually do know (and can personally verify are not bots) are finding these "arguments" compelling.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                It's not unreasonable to wish that the human population was a lot smaller and under control. But that's not the same as wanting to cull the human population or eliminate it entirely.
                Did you read what these guys were calling for? Things like eliminating 9/10 of the population or even wishing for our extinction. And the groups and organizations that some of them belonged to.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  It makes no difference, who or what is doing the killing is irrelevant, what is being killed is the the issue. The unborn child in the womb is not protected from legal abortion. The eagle eggs are protected across the board.
                  Eagle eggs are not legally protected from being destroyed or abandoned by the parent eagles.* Or by other eagles, hawks, raccoons or other predators.
                  So what? You can not apply law to the actions of animals.
                  So when you said "who or what is doing the killing is irrelevant", you knew that wasn't true. When you said "The eagle eggs are protected across the board,." you knew that wasn't true.

                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

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                  • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    I'm starting to wonder if we're wasting our time trying to logically argue our positions. I saw a viral infographic today arguing that the actual point of wanting to overturn Roe was to reinstitute slavery. That's so far off base that nobody could possibly provide any evidence for this claim, but that's just it - evidence is irrelevant, and pro-choice sentiment based on feeling is winning the court of public opinion. Someone can post that nonsense and get it reposted thousands of times, yet nobody will actually read or engage with thoughtful -pro-life arguments.
                    You have supposedly serious journalists and the like running about declaring this will end up resulting in the repeal of the 19th Amendment and bring back slavery -- and nobody questions or challenges them when they say it.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment



                    • Apologies to the thread starter - I had forgotten your edict!
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Looks like the left is going to do exactly what they always do whenever they don't get their way.

                        Source: Abortion rights protests kick off planned 'summer of rage'


                        Organizers of nationwide abortion rights protests said they expect hundreds of thousands of people to show up on Saturday at events in New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Washington, D.C., and other major cities, Reuters reports.

                        Abortion rights groups have organized more than 300 "Bans off Our Bodies" marches to protest the leaked draft Supreme Court decision that would overturn Roe v. Wade (1973).

                        According to The Associated Press, if the court's final ruling — which is expected in June — is substantively identical to the draft ruling, "roughly half of states, mostly in the South and Midwest, are expected to" implement near-total bans on abortion.

                        "For the women of this country, this will be a summer of rage. We will be ungovernable until this government starts working for us, until the attacks on our bodies let up, until the right to an abortion is codified into law," Women's March President Rachel Carmona said.

                        On Wednesday, the Senate fell 11 votes short of passing a bill that would have enshrined abortion rights in federal law.


                        Source

                        © Copyright Original Source



                        But it looks that those who bankroll the professional protestors, who pay for pallets of bricks to "mysteriously appear" at a "protest" site, and supply the bail and pay the fines, aren't fully onboard so if we're lucky it won't be nearly as bad as the several months of "fiery but peaceful" rioting.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Did you read what these guys were calling for? Things like eliminating 9/10 of the population or even wishing for our extinction. And the groups and organizations that some of them belonged to.
                          I read what you claimed these guys were calling for.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                            I read what you claimed these guys were calling for.
                            I "claimed"?

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                              One clarification: I don't have Twitter so I can't speak as to the dynamic there. However, I use Facebook and people I actually do know (and can personally verify are not bots) are finding these "arguments" compelling.
                              Which is all the more reason to present real, compelling arguments to the contrary.

                              Bots make things look more popular than they are and increase the likelihood of real people seeing the crap. They are a problem on FB as well (epidemic on Twit, however). They tend to magnify the impression that 'everyone' thinks X or has made up their mind. Most people aren't doing more than familiarizing themselves with stuff - they usually aren't all that committed as long as they don't feel pressured (no one likes being told they are stupid because they thought something they really hadn't fully considered).
                              Last edited by Teallaura; 05-18-2022, 10:15 AM.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                I "claimed"?
                                Yeah, like here, where you claimed that "James E. Lovelock, best known for his advocacy of the Gaia hypothesis, 2006 book, "The Revenge of Gaia: Why the Earth is Fighting Back – and How we Can Still Save Humanity"[1] calls for nine-tenths of humanity to vanish to "save" the planet from global warming which he claims will kill billions of humans by the end of the century with the survivors forced to move to the Arctic regions to survive."

                                It would be nice to be able to verify this claim, and to be able to see just how he thinks nine-tenths of humanity should be made to vanish.

                                It seems like such an extreme view that someone besides yourself should have noted it somewhere.

                                Comment

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