Coach in Case on School Prayer

[Gondwanaland]

That is not the discussion but is about whether his praying was Constitutionally protected free speech. Try and stay on topic...

No, the topic is this pastor making performative prayers in the middle of a football field out loud. Quite on topic.

But you're welcome to kick me out if you want to prove Christians can't handle criticism over their performative prayers made to be seen by everyone, in contravention to what Jesus told them.

[seer]

No, the topic is this pastor making performative prayers in the middle of a football field out loud. Quite on topic.

But you're welcome to kick me out if you want to prove Christians can't handle criticism over their performative prayers made to be seen by everyone, in contravention to what Jesus told them.

Whether you believe the coach is violating a Christian tenet is not the subject - was his praying Constitutionally protected free speech - is. And yes, if you don't want to discuss that you may leave...

[Mountain Man]

I always find these sorts of cases to be entertaining. If he hasn't compelled players (and if players on other teams join freely), I don't particularly see a problem legally.

The entertaining part is seeing Christians ignore what Jesus himself taught in multiple places in order to make themselves seen praying in highly public places. Modern day Pharisees

Scripture Verse: Luke 18

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector


⁹ To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: ¹⁰ “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. ¹¹ The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. ¹² I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

¹³ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

¹⁴ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: Matthew 6

⁵ “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. ⁶ But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. ⁷ And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. ⁸ Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

© Copyright Original Source

Pardon me, your ignorance is showing.

Jesus does not condemn praying in the presence of others -- indeed, he and his disciples often prayed in public where others could see and hear -- rather, he condemns hypocritical displays done with the intent of being seen by others. Even Daniel the prophet was judged as righteous when he prayed in front of an open window in full view of the city.

[Mountain Man]

No, the topic is this pastor making performative prayers in the middle of a football field out loud. Quite on topic.

But you're welcome to kick me out if you want to prove Christians can't handle criticism over their performative prayers made to be seen by everyone, in contravention to what Jesus told them.

Condemning it as "performative" is making assumptions about the coach's motivations that are not supported by evidence.

[Gondwanaland]

Pardon me, your ignorance is showing.

Jesus does not condemn praying in the presence of others -- indeed, he and his disciples often prayed in public where others could see and hear -- rather, he condemns hypocritical displays done with the intent of being seen by others. Even Daniel the prophet was judged as righteous when he prayed in front of an open window in full view of the city.

Yes, he condemns the exact sort of praying the coach is doing.

[Gondwanaland]

Condemning it as "performative" is making assumptions about the coach's motivations that are not supported by evidence.

It is not making any assumptions. The man literally goes out into the middle of a football field and prays out loud.

That's performative by definition.

[seer]

It is not making any assumptions. The man literally goes out into the middle of a football field and prays out loud.

That's performative by definition.

You may leave, everybody, please stop playing with Gondwanaland, he is in time out....

[Sparko]

Yes, he condemns the exact sort of praying the coach is doing.

That would preclude any praying in church services (or Temple in Jesus' day) by any members including the priests

[Gondwanaland]

You may leave...

No worries, I understand, you talk a big game about free speech but only want speech that agrees with you, as you've shown in other threads as well. Some Christians just can't stand getting called out on their un-Christlike behavior or seeing other fellow Christians called out for their own behavior. Its a side-effect of the persecution complex built into Christianity.

Laters.

[tabibito]

Leading or participating in public
to be seen

would be prohibited.

as an expression of devotion

would not be prohibited

Jesus himself made public prayer, as did the founding apostles.

It would seem that their interpretations of the injunction are at variance with those of commentators a couple of thousand years later. It then depends on whom you consider to be in the better position to accurately interpret what Jesus meant.

[rogue06]

Leading or participating in public
to be seen

would be prohibited.

as an expression of devotion

would not be prohibited

Jesus himself made public prayer, as did the founding apostles.

It would seem that their interpretations of the injunction are at variance with those of commentators a couple of thousand years later. It then depends on whom you consider to be in the better position to accurately interpret what Jesus meant.

I provided two instances where Jesus prayed publicly (and there are several others), so obviously public prayer was itself not what was being criticized.

[tabibito]

I provided two instances where Jesus prayed publicly (and there are several others), so obviously public prayer was itself not what was being criticized.

Ah yes, but that is only in the Biblical record, so neither your argument nor mine is valid.

[seer]

Some sanity!

SCOTUS unanimously rules Boston violated group's rights by refusing to fly Christian flag

SCOTUS said Boston violated the Camp's free speech rights

The Supreme Court ruled unanimously that a program of the city of Boston that allows outside groups to fly flags at city hall must permit the flying of flag with a cross that a camp referred to as a "Christian flag."

The question before the court was whether flying the flag as part of a government program was considered government speech if the flag belonged to a private organization, in this case, Camp Constitution. The Supreme Court ruled that it is not.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sco...ston-city-hall

[rogue06]

UPDATE:

Source: Religious Freedom Wins: Washington School Must Rehire Praying Coach

It’s a great day in America when the Bill of Rights and religious freedom prevail over government hostility, censorship and suppression. It’s great for praying coach Joe Kennedy, who will return to work as a Bremerton, Wash., high school football coach within the next few months after previously getting fired for praying on the field after games.

On June 27, the U.S. Supreme Court ended Kennedy’s seven-year legal battle by deciding Bremerton High School violated his right to pray on its football field when it fired him in 2015. A joint stipulation in court this week revealed that the school must reinstate the coach to his previous position with backpay on or before March 15, 2023.

Kennedy was fired by the school over his post-game prayers at the 50-yard line. His legal battle was “vying for the protection of traditionally Christian values amid the nation’s ongoing rejection of religious principles,” wrote Alexandro Avila, on the Outkick blog.

That protection is the nation’s first liberty, the religious freedom promised by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Bremerton High School trampled on that amendment in Kennedy’s case, but that wrong has been righted. He filed a lawsuit against Bremerton High, but a district court ruled and the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit both ruled against him. The case went all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court, where he finally received justice with a favorable 6-3 decision.

This week’s release of a court document indicates Kennedy is entitled to “declaratory relief consistent with the Supreme Court’s opinion in this case, and that Bremerton School District ‘shall not interfere with or prohibit Kennedy from offering a prayer consistent with the Supreme Court’s opinion.’”

Rob McKenna, former Washington attorney general, had complained that Coach Kennedy was encouraging football players to join him in on-field, post-game prayers.

Supreme Court justice Neil Gorsuch wrote in the high court’s decision that, “The Constitution and the best of our traditions counsel mutual respect and tolerance, not censorship and suppression, for religious and nonreligious views alike.

"Kennedy prayed during a period when school employees were free to speak with a friend, call for a reservation at a restaurant, check email, or attend to other personal matters. He offered his prayers quietly while his students were otherwise occupied. Still, the Bremerton School District disciplined him anyway.”

Like Kennedy’s June victory at SCOTUS, the recent stipulation that he must be reinstated with back pay is a great triumph for religious freedom in America.



Source

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[Sparko]