The Flowers and the Wedding -- Just the FACTS, please

[Sparko]

And the latest news, the state Supreme Court ruled against the florist, pushing the case (assuming they appeal) to SCOTUS. The wedding cake ruling was very narrow - so perhaps this time they will rule on the more general issue.

However, with a 5-4 conservative majority, the odds aren't in favor of the plaintive.

looks like it went to SCOTUS, they kicked it back down to the state supreme court and the state SC just ruled that they did nothing wrong in their first ruling and according to the article "did not take SCOTUS seriously" - so it will probably go back to SCOTUS.

A state law regarding discrimination against sexual orientation can't override the constitution. The first amendment overrides any laws made against it.

[carpedm9587]

And the latest news, the state Supreme Court ruled against the florist, pushing the case (assuming they appeal) to SCOTUS. The wedding cake ruling was very narrow - so perhaps this time they will rule on the more general issue.

However, with a 5-4 conservative majority, the odds aren't in favor of the plaintive.

[Cow Poke]

However, it couldn't get very far in the courts without the couple's cooperation. May not have been intended as a test case but it's turning into one - and they do have some control of that.

There was definitely an indication in the reading I've done that they were "pushed" into moving forward with the law suit. Not sure of the chronology on this -- that's what's missing.

[Teallaura]

Before the State AG got involved, both men posted about it on facebook, which triggered all the public attention. Otherwise it would have been unlikely to have become sensational.

However, it couldn't get very far in the courts without the couple's cooperation. May not have been intended as a test case but it's turning into one - and they do have some control of that.

[Teallaura]

So do you think it would have been acceptable for her to do the standard florist stuff, but agree not to have her name mentioned?

Not having internalized any of the religious faith stuff, I really don't know if Jesus would frown on her providing flower to celebrate the wedding. But I would guess that even if she kept her role secret, she'd know in her heart that Jesus would know what she did and, I don't know -- what DOES Jesus do to you if you screw up?

1) How, exactly, do you ensure such a condition? The florist would have to buy packaging without their name on it - an added expense and find a delivery vehicle without their name on it. And ensure no one at the venue would recognize them - it's an absurd proposition.

2) You don't remember Daniel and the Lion's Den? We are to worship God and God only. We are to honor Him in all we do - and aiding in the mockery of Holy Matrimony, even in cognito, dishonors Him. And yes, He knows it. When we sin, He is quick to forgive - but we must repent. That means we decide consciously not to do that thing again - so this is no loophole. You can't pretend to repent and a florist trying to please both God and the sinners determined to continue their sin will only manage to hurt themselves. The particular sin isn't at issue - same would be true if the florist did a mock wedding for an adulterous couple. God is not mocked and NEVER 'winks' at sin.

The CRA has now been taken to ridiculous extremes and endangers the protections of the Constitution itself. It should be repealed, but will likely be overturned instead.

[Cow Poke]

So I take it I could be married for years, and you'd be happy to share some time with me, so long as my marital condition was not the point of the get-together? Let's say the occasion was my same-sex spouse doing something noteworthy - graduating from college, or getting published, or cutting an album, etc. Would that disqualify us?

Phank, as I've stated numerous times, my "right hand man" at my previous job was an atheist lesbian Jew. I knew her significant other quite well, and she would come to company outings and Christmas parties. I got along with them quite well, and my executive admin was jokingly referred to as my "work wife".

If there had been parties or events celebrating or recognizing their lesbianism, I would have declined, and they would have understood.

[Cow Poke]

Before the State AG got involved, both men posted about it on facebook, which triggered all the public attention. Otherwise it would have been unlikely to have become sensational.

Didn't know that.

[Paprika]

From all I have been able to tell, when they asked her to do the wedding, she explained she couldn't. They, at the time, told her they understood, and respected her position. It was subsequent to that that the State Attorney General got involved, then the ACLU, and they were off to the races.

Before the State AG got involved, both men posted about it on facebook, which triggered all the public attention. Otherwise it would have been unlikely to have become sensational.

[phank]

Hmmmm... our "relationship" is one of supplier/buyer, and isn't, and hasn't been, "social". I would politely decline "raising a glass" to your same sex wedding, yes.

So I take it I could be married for years, and you'd be happy to share some time with me, so long as my marital condition was not the point of the get-together? Let's say the occasion was my same-sex spouse doing something noteworthy - graduating from college, or getting published, or cutting an album, etc. Would that disqualify us?

[Cow Poke]

Yes, that's what I intend. My wedding was a quick JP deal, because we aren't into big productions. We simply wanted to change our status to married, and that sufficed. But I did have friends and when I told them I had gone and committed marriage, they were willing to have a beer with me. So yes, it did have the air of a celebration, but not an actual event. The event was either signing the form or handing over the $20, I'm not sure which.

Hmmmm... our "relationship" is one of supplier/buyer, and isn't, and hasn't been, "social". I would politely decline "raising a glass" to your same sex wedding, yes.

[Cow Poke]

A florist's work is also their advertising (it's pretty obvious you guys are both guys -

What an incredibly sexist and insensitive remark! You need to go directly to muliticultural sensitivity training, and QUICK -- do NOT pass go, do NOT collect $200.00!!

[phank]

A florist's work is also their advertising (it's pretty obvious you guys are both guys - this bit is self evident to any woman. It's the first thing we ask after saying 'wow, the flowers are beautiful!'). Florists depend heavily on 'word of mouth' advertising for event work. Being known as the person that did the gorgeous arrangements at so-and-so's wedding is how you get more business for events. Whether or not the florist is onsite during the wedding (depends entirely on re-use, which is still relatively rare), their name is going to be associated with the event.

Acting as wholesaler is iffy - I would expect Aunt Whatshername to get credit if she did the arranging but it's very possible and even probable that the florist's name would also come up (where did you get those...) so I can see arguments both ways on that one.

So do you think it would have been acceptable for her to do the standard florist stuff, but agree not to have her name mentioned?

Not having internalized any of the religious faith stuff, I really don't know if Jesus would frown on her providing flower to celebrate the wedding. But I would guess that even if she kept her role secret, she'd know in her heart that Jesus would know what she did and, I don't know -- what DOES Jesus do to you if you screw up?

[phank]

Hmmmm... "lifting a glass" implies, in a sense, a "blessing" or... I'm not sure we're using the same definitions or understandings of "wedding" vs. "marriage".

I'll try first --- the "wedding" is the event at which the "marriage" commences or is recognized or "celebrated", yes?

Yes, that's what I intend. My wedding was a quick JP deal, because we aren't into big productions. We simply wanted to change our status to married, and that sufficed. But I did have friends and when I told them I had gone and committed marriage, they were willing to have a beer with me. So yes, it did have the air of a celebration, but not an actual event. The event was either signing the form or handing over the $20, I'm not sure which.

[Teallaura]

A florist's work is also their advertising (it's pretty obvious you guys are both guys - this bit is self evident to any woman. It's the first thing we ask after saying 'wow, the flowers are beautiful!'). Florists depend heavily on 'word of mouth' advertising for event work. Being known as the person that did the gorgeous arrangements at so-and-so's wedding is how you get more business for events. Whether or not the florist is onsite during the wedding (depends entirely on re-use, which is still relatively rare), their name is going to be associated with the event.

Acting as wholesaler is iffy - I would expect Aunt Whatshername to get credit if she did the arranging but it's very possible and even probable that the florist's name would also come up (where did you get those...) so I can see arguments both ways on that one.

[Cow Poke]

But this also helps me, which I appreciate. So your objection is to the wedding and not the marriage. That's interesting. So if the marriage were a simple JP affair at the courthouse, but the newlyweds threw a party the next month, would you object to lifting a glass with them at that event?

Hmmmm... "lifting a glass" implies, in a sense, a "blessing" or... I'm not sure we're using the same definitions or understandings of "wedding" vs. "marriage".

I'll try first --- the "wedding" is the event at which the "marriage" commences or is recognized or "celebrated", yes?