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The Flowers and the Wedding -- Just the FACTS, please

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  • The Flowers and the Wedding -- Just the FACTS, please

    Once again, I'm asking that we refrain from name calling, and just calmly discuss the facts of the case.

    Yeah, I know, this horse has been whipped to death, but it just won't lay down and die.

    What I want to know is simple, but I can't seem to find the actual answer in the news articles I've searched, including the "Queer Nation" website and others.

    Here's the question....
    Did Stuzman (the florist) refuse to sell "flowers"? Or did she decline to provide the SERVICE of arranging the flowers at the wedding?

    Let's establish that fact first, before arguing whether it matters or not. (To some of us it will matter, to others it won't)

    Here's Stutzman's account

    Source: NYDaily News


    “He said he decided to get married, and before he got through I grabbed his hand and said, ‘I am sorry. I can't do your wedding because of my relationship with Jesus Christ,’" Stutzman said. She said it was the only wedding she had declined in 37 years.

    © Copyright Original Source



    In stories that appear to favor Stutzman, there's the additional statement to the effect "he said he understood and respected my belief, and we hugged", but that's missing from the stories that tend to favor the Ingersoll and Freed.

    Again....

    Is it known that what she was refusing/declining was "selling" the flowers? Or was it "providing the flowers for the wedding"?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  • #2
    Edited by a Moderator
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 06-12-2014, 02:11 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Epo.....

      It appears you PURPOSELY set out to violate the very heart and intent of the OP.

      Please don't breathe your dragon breath here again.

      Please DO NOT post in this thread anymore.

      Thanks.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #4
        You might check to see what a florist usually does in order to "do" a wedding. But from your very brief description, it sounds like there was nothing the least bit nonstandard about the request.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by phank View Post
          You might check to see what a florist usually does in order to "do" a wedding.
          Well, as a Pastor who also "does" weddings, I kinda sorta know. It's not just "selling flowers" - it's setting up, arranging, etc. It requires involvement in the process at the venue, as opposed to just "ringing up the cash register" in your own store.

          But from your very brief description, it sounds like there was nothing the least bit nonstandard about the request.
          I'd still like to establish the facts first, but I also think there is actually a difference between "selling flowers" (which is how most seem to spin this) and being involved in the process of delivering, setting up, and being a part of the wedding "arrangement".

          Do you have an answer to the question in the OP? To wit... Is it known that what she was refusing/declining was "selling" the flowers? Or was it "providing the flowers for the wedding"?

          And I'll further clarify the question that "providing the flowers for the wedding" also usually includes delivering them to the venue, setting them up, and being involved in the process.
          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

          Comment


          • #6
            A florist does a lot more than merely hand over flowers when doing a wedding. Flowers, arranging, vessels, ribbon/bows, candles and candelabras and both putting up and taking down of arrangements (especially large ones) - there is an incredible amount of work in an average wedding. It would be the exception if the wedding were merely ordering flowers for pick up and later arrangement (done usually to save money).


            http://weddings.about.com/od/wedding...ingflorist.htm
            Last edited by Teallaura; 03-15-2014, 03:57 PM.

            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              A florist does a lot more than merely hand over flowers when doing a wedding. Flowers, arranging, vessels, ribbon/bows, candles and candelabras and both putting up and taking down of arrangements (especially large ones) - there is an incredible amount of work in an average wedding.
              Thanks -- that's a pretty good assessment of what a florist does when they "do" a wedding, in my 40 years of experience.

              It would be the exception if the wedding were merely ordering flowers for pick up and later arrangement (done usually to save money).
              Yes, that's "selling". (assuming somebody in the wedding party (or family or friends) does the "arrangement")
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • #8
                Edited by a Moderator
                Last edited by Bill the Cat; 06-12-2014, 02:11 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Thanks -- that's a pretty good assessment of what a florist does when they "do" a wedding, in my 40 years of experience.
                  OK, if that's how things are done, then that's pretty standard.

                  I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're trying to draw here. Apparently you feel that the normal degree of florist involvement exceeds some threshhold across which lies implicit endorsement somehow.

                  So if they had simply asked Stutzman to sell them the flowers over the counter, and they'd do all the setup and arrangement themselves, should she have refused THAT request? I wonder why she did not offer it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by phank View Post
                    OK, if that's how things are done, then that's pretty standard.
                    It really is. The bigger the wedding, the more involvement required.

                    I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're trying to draw here. Apparently you feel that the normal degree of florist involvement exceeds some threshhold across which lies implicit endorsement somehow.
                    Yes. The Florist had been selling flowers to the same man for a decade. Apparently, no objection. If the flowers were just "being bought", and she refused to sell them because they were "for a gay wedding", that'd be one thing. But if her presence was required at the venue, as part of the "arranging" of the wedding, that's a whole 'nuther issue.

                    So if they had simply asked Stutzman to sell them the flowers over the counter, and they'd do all the setup and arrangement themselves, should she have refused THAT request?
                    I would have a harder time defending that refusal.

                    I wonder why she did not offer it.
                    Probably the nature of the beast. The "value" of using a florist for a wedding is the fact that they deliver, arrange, do all the fancy "bows and ribbons", and are actually involved in the preparation for the ceremony.

                    Honestly, though, that's why I've been trying to find out FACTUALLY if she was simply asked to "sell" the flowers, or if it was to provide the service of delivery, set up, arranging, etc that a normal wedding would require.
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Honestly, though, that's why I've been trying to find out FACTUALLY if she was simply asked to "sell" the flowers, or if it was to provide the service of delivery, set up, arranging, etc that a normal wedding would require.
                      I'm not sure I'm still following you here. They COULD have asked her just to tend the cash register, and done the arrangements themselves. Why didn't they? Were they trying to manufacture a test case here? If they had, should she have accepted? Why didn't she offer to negotiate along those lines?

                      And I'm still trying to identify the threshhold you agreed existed but didn't delineate. Is the floral arrangement and setup done ahead of time, or is it done during the actual ceremony? If Stutzman were asked to do preliminary setup but not be present for the ceremony, would THAT have been acceptable to you? Is there some part of the ceremony that's over the line? Could Stutzman step out during that part, but then return for the reception? I confess I really don't understand the nature of her objection. Is it to the entire ceremony, or is it to the condition of marriage that exists after the ceremony? If her customer of 10 years should come in to buy flowers AFTER (say, months after) the wedding, would she be willing to sell them? Can you explain?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by phank View Post
                        I'm not sure I'm still following you here. They COULD have asked her just to tend the cash register, and done the arrangements themselves. Why didn't they? Were they trying to manufacture a test case here? If they had, should she have accepted? Why didn't she offer to negotiate along those lines?
                        From all I have been able to tell, when they asked her to do the wedding, she explained she couldn't. They, at the time, told her they understood, and respected her position. It was subsequent to that that the State Attorney General got involved, then the ACLU, and they were off to the races.

                        And I'm still trying to identify the threshhold you agreed existed but didn't delineate.
                        I thought I did, but I appreciate your calm and rational response, and will be happy to work through this.

                        Is the floral arrangement and setup done ahead of time, or is it done during the actual ceremony?
                        It is done at the venue, most of it would be prior to the actual ceremony, yes.

                        If Stutzman were asked to do preliminary setup but not be present for the ceremony, would THAT have been acceptable to you?
                        Personally, I would object. But you do raise an interesting point. The photographer IS required to be there during the ceremony, of course. (Side issue, I know, but hadn't really thought about that distinction)

                        Is there some part of the ceremony that's over the line? Could Stutzman step out during that part, but then return for the reception? I confess I really don't understand the nature of her objection. Is it to the entire ceremony, or is it to the condition of marriage that exists after the ceremony? If her customer of 10 years should come in to buy flowers AFTER (say, months after) the wedding, would she be willing to sell them? Can you explain?
                        I can't speak for her, Phank, but I would assume it's the same as my objection. The wedding ceremony is the celebration of a decision to be life partners. My involvement in that is a tacit approval - I would be materially contributing to something I fundamentally opposed.

                        As for selling flowers AFTER the fact -- simply an over-the-counter sale -- I have no control or interest in how those flowers are used. I don't need to know, I don't have an interest in knowing -- it's just another sale.
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          From all I have been able to tell, when they asked her to do the wedding, she explained she couldn't. They, at the time, told her they understood, and respected her position. It was subsequent to that that the State Attorney General got involved, then the ACLU, and they were off to the races.
                          I don't know those details.


                          Personally, I would object. But you do raise an interesting point. The photographer IS required to be there during the ceremony, of course. (Side issue, I know, but hadn't really thought about that distinction)
                          OK, so we're getting things pinned down here! You would be willing to SELL the flowers, you wouldn't be willing to set them up. Would you be willing to deliver them, and drive off? If the delivery involved carrying them from the truck to the hall, would THAT be the threshhold?

                          These may sound like stupid questions, and maybe they are, but as you're aware I simply am unable to grasp the nature of the objection in the first place. So in my own mind, I need to pin down exactly which action steps over the line. Could she have carried them in but have someone else set them down? Could she have carried them to the door, but had someone else take them from there? If you were in her position, exactly how far would you go before saying "this is too far", and why would it be THAT point and not some other point?



                          I can't speak for her, Phank, but I would assume it's the same as my objection. The wedding ceremony is the celebration of a decision to be life partners. My involvement in that is a tacit approval - I would be materially contributing to something I fundamentally opposed.

                          As for selling flowers AFTER the fact -- simply an over-the-counter sale -- I have no control or interest in how those flowers are used. I don't need to know, I don't have an interest in knowing -- it's just another sale.
                          But this also helps me, which I appreciate. So your objection is to the wedding and not the marriage. That's interesting. So if the marriage were a simple JP affair at the courthouse, but the newlyweds threw a party the next month, would you object to lifting a glass with them at that event?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by phank View Post
                            I don't know those details.
                            Neither do I -- that is the intent of the thread. It depends on what story is being told by which side how these details are "painted".

                            OK, so we're getting things pinned down here! You would be willing to SELL the flowers, you wouldn't be willing to set them up. Would you be willing to deliver them, and drive off? If the delivery involved carrying them from the truck to the hall, would THAT be the threshhold?
                            Hmmm... hadn't even thought of that. I either buy my flowers from Krogers, or borrow them from the local cemetery. (KIDDING!!!! I stopped doing that long ago!!!!) Seriously, I stopped dealing with "real florists" long ago, so I wasn't even thinking about the fact that "real florists" deliver as a regular part of their business.

                            Good question, Phank... lemme give that a mull.

                            These may sound like stupid questions,
                            Not at all!

                            and maybe they are, but as you're aware I simply am unable to grasp the nature of the objection in the first place. So in my own mind, I need to pin down exactly which action steps over the line. Could she have carried them in but have someone else set them down? Could she have carried them to the door, but had someone else take them from there? If you were in her position, exactly how far would you go before saying "this is too far", and why would it be THAT point and not some other point?
                            Perhaps my problem (if you want to call it a problem) is that a "wedding / marriage" is still, in my mind, the coming together of two people in "Holy Matrimony". I thought that's why "civil unions" were becoming "the thing". There is nothing "Holy" about two persons committing to live together in a sinful relationship. Since Stuzman identifies herself as a Christian, I'm assuming this is her sticking point, as well.

                            I have never performed, as a minister, a "wedding" that was not "Holy Matrimony". When somebody wanted a "non religious wedding", I would refer them to the local justice of the peace, or others who I knew would not object. I think I would be inclined to do the same thing with other "wedding related" services. There are others who have no problem with "gay marriages".

                            But this also helps me, which I appreciate. So your objection is to the wedding and not the marriage. That's interesting. So if the marriage were a simple JP affair at the courthouse, but the newlyweds threw a party the next month, would you object to lifting a glass with them at that event?
                            lemme get this in a separate post.
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by phank View Post
                              But this also helps me, which I appreciate. So your objection is to the wedding and not the marriage. That's interesting. So if the marriage were a simple JP affair at the courthouse, but the newlyweds threw a party the next month, would you object to lifting a glass with them at that event?
                              Hmmmm... "lifting a glass" implies, in a sense, a "blessing" or... I'm not sure we're using the same definitions or understandings of "wedding" vs. "marriage".

                              I'll try first --- the "wedding" is the event at which the "marriage" commences or is recognized or "celebrated", yes?
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                              Comment

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