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What should congress do about Obama's refusal to enforce his own law?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
    Meta-data from phone calls is the exact same thing as a list of books a citizen has checked out from the library?
    Hmmm... somebody actually made that claim, Jesse?

    Dear CP,

    On executive orders. We've discussed this before. There's no question Obama has followed the modern trend, issuing fewer executive orders than his predecessor.
    So, if my predecessor punched 27 people in the nose, and I only killed 2 people, then I have clearly committed FEWER violent acts than my predecessor.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Hmmm... somebody actually made that claim, Jesse?
      Your evil twin, maybe?

      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      It was wrong then, and it's still wrong. Obama, as senator and constitutional scholar, spoke against exactly what he's doing.

      *video linked as evidence*
      I figure "spoke against exactly what he's doing" should mean "spoke against exactly what he's doing." In the video, he spoke against sharing library book lists as a candidate, and in favor of collecting phone meta-data as the president.

      Did you watch your own video?

      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      So, if my predecessor punched 27 people in the nose, and I only killed 2 people, then I have clearly committed FEWER violent acts than my predecessor.
      Dear CP,

      That's what I mean by hand-waving. I showed you the list of orders, and you hand back a claim that punches in the nose have escalated to killing people. I've looked. I can't find anything like that, or anything even kinda sorta like that. If there really is an executive order out there much, much, worse ... you should be able to find it.

      Or, I dunno, stop claiming they exist?

      Because if saying so isn't directly dishonest, it's at least in reckless disregard for the truth.

      It's the same thing every time. I ask you which of his actions or policies you oppose, and you tell me he's from Chicago! I understand in Texas, that's enough. I also understand there are historical issues across the South that haven't quite been laid to rest.

      I'm trying really hard not to draw the obvious conclusion. You're not helping.

      As ever, Jesse

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
        Your evil twin, maybe?
        I resent that

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          I resemble that
          Fixed it for ya!
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Well, he's twisting it into a one payer system. It's getting harder to argue that that was not the goal in the first place.
            It should have been. It was bungled for two reasons I could see. First, because Obama foolishly expected Congress to govern. So he tried to round up as many previous Republican recommendations as he could so as to produce a bipartisan proposal. The Republicans were not interested in their recommendations and prior proposals, they were interested in discrediting Obama no matter what it took. I think Obama should have realized what he was running into, surely there were many in Congress who could have told him.

            Second, any sensible, workable national health plan was guaranteed not to be in the intereststs of some MAJOR campaign contributors and lobbyists. The pharmaceutical industry, the AMA, the insurance industry, for starters. And one thing Obama did understand was that enough Democrats in Congress were beholden to these interests, so that if they weren't included there was no hope of passage. And (from above), without the support of these industries, Republicans would have reason to oppose it. Again, Obama thought Republicans were sensible.

            The result of all this was a camel designed by a committee, an unintegrated, self-conflicting, incoherent mishmash of legislation, thousands of pages long, that nobody could really comprehend because there wasn't much of a theme, just a lot of disparate proposals in an effort to please everyone.

            So OK, the time comes to implement the damn thing, and every detail conflicts with the other details. The amount of tweaking required to get anything off the ground, necessarily requires almost rewriting the entire law. But scrapping it and starting over isn't going to happen, and even Obama realizes that. What SHOULD have been done wasn't even politically doable when the Democrats controlled both houses. The vested interests involved are too powerful to implement any sane national health system directly. Really the ONLY way to do it was to pass an ungodly mess to get as much buy-in as possible to get the votes, and then, line by line, revise and modify and postpone and rework it until it approximates what the political system didn't have the courage to do right the first time.

            Comment


            • #36
              The thing was ramrodded through Congress on the strength of the majority - it's pathetic to try and blame the minority party now.

              Nope, this egg is ALL Obama's - cracks and all.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

              Quill Sword

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by phank View Post
                It should have been. It was bungled for two reasons I could see. First, because Obama foolishly expected Congress to govern. So he tried to round up as many previous Republican recommendations as he could so as to produce a bipartisan proposal. The Republicans were not interested in their recommendations and prior proposals, they were interested in discrediting Obama no matter what it took. I think Obama should have realized what he was running into, surely there were many in Congress who could have told him.

                Second, any sensible, workable national health plan was guaranteed not to be in the intereststs of some MAJOR campaign contributors and lobbyists. The pharmaceutical industry, the AMA, the insurance industry, for starters. And one thing Obama did understand was that enough Democrats in Congress were beholden to these interests, so that if they weren't included there was no hope of passage. And (from above), without the support of these industries, Republicans would have reason to oppose it. Again, Obama thought Republicans were sensible.

                The result of all this was a camel designed by a committee, an unintegrated, self-conflicting, incoherent mishmash of legislation, thousands of pages long, that nobody could really comprehend because there wasn't much of a theme, just a lot of disparate proposals in an effort to please everyone.

                So OK, the time comes to implement the damn thing, and every detail conflicts with the other details. The amount of tweaking required to get anything off the ground, necessarily requires almost rewriting the entire law. But scrapping it and starting over isn't going to happen, and even Obama realizes that. What SHOULD have been done wasn't even politically doable when the Democrats controlled both houses. The vested interests involved are too powerful to implement any sane national health system directly. Really the ONLY way to do it was to pass an ungodly mess to get as much buy-in as possible to get the votes, and then, line by line, revise and modify and postpone and rework it until it approximates what the political system didn't have the courage to do right the first time.
                Well, you kinda sorta neglected to mention the UNIONS, and the goofy "have to pass it to find out what's in it".

                God forbid that it be introduced a section at a time, attempting to solve the actual problems that existed, instead of just creating a whole bunch of new ones.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Well, you kinda sorta neglected to mention the UNIONS, and the goofy "have to pass it to find out what's in it".
                  A large part of why that was necessarily, unavoidably true is the fact that so much of the bill's enforcement was left up to the executive branch, specifically to the dept. of Health and Human Services. The imperial presidency is being enabled by Congress.
                  Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                    It's the same thing every time. I ask you which of his actions or policies you oppose, and you tell me he's from Chicago! I understand in Texas, that's enough. I also understand there are historical issues across the South that haven't quite been laid to rest.
                    This really has nothing to do with the War of Northern Aggression, Jesse.

                    Answer me this, if you will... are you totally OK with all the "tweaks" Obama has Executively Ordered? I mean, it's possible you really are, so let's start there.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      Fixed it for ya!
                      That too.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by phank
                        So OK, the time comes to implement the damn thing, and every detail conflicts with the other details. The amount of tweaking required to get anything off the ground, necessarily requires almost rewriting the entire law. But scrapping it and starting over isn't going to happen, and even Obama realizes that. What SHOULD have been done wasn't even politically doable when the Democrats controlled both houses. The vested interests involved are too powerful to implement any sane national health system directly. Really the ONLY way to do it was to pass an ungodly mess to get as much buy-in as possible to get the votes, and then, line by line, revise and modify and postpone and rework it until it approximates what the political system didn't have the courage to do right the first time.
                        In your haste to pretend that Obama isn't exactly the same say-anything puppet of vested interests that nearly every other AA hire turns out to be (big surprise when you put unqualified people in high positions, they end up controlled by qualified people theoretically lower on the totem pole) you kind of neglected to mention the fact that not doing anything was also an option. Also, my current signature seems an appropriate caution:

                        Hackneyed novels never hurt anyone in the way that cheerleading policy books will contribute to the harm and ruin of others. Now that State and Church are separate, bestselling policy wonks fill the void left by the defunct office of "spiritual advisor" to the leader: amass as many factoids as possible in support of the belief that the leader is wise and benevolent.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by phank View Post
                          It should have been. It was bungled for two reasons I could see. First, because Obama foolishly expected Congress to govern. So he tried to round up as many previous Republican recommendations as he could so as to produce a bipartisan proposal. The Republicans were not interested in their recommendations and prior proposals, they were interested in discrediting Obama no matter what it took. I think Obama should have realized what he was running into, surely there were many in Congress who could have told him.

                          Second, any sensible, workable national health plan was guaranteed not to be in the intereststs of some MAJOR campaign contributors and lobbyists. The pharmaceutical industry, the AMA, the insurance industry, for starters. And one thing Obama did understand was that enough Democrats in Congress were beholden to these interests, so that if they weren't included there was no hope of passage. And (from above), without the support of these industries, Republicans would have reason to oppose it. Again, Obama thought Republicans were sensible.

                          The result of all this was a camel designed by a committee, an unintegrated, self-conflicting, incoherent mishmash of legislation, thousands of pages long, that nobody could really comprehend because there wasn't much of a theme, just a lot of disparate proposals in an effort to please everyone.

                          So OK, the time comes to implement the damn thing, and every detail conflicts with the other details. The amount of tweaking required to get anything off the ground, necessarily requires almost rewriting the entire law. But scrapping it and starting over isn't going to happen, and even Obama realizes that. What SHOULD have been done wasn't even politically doable when the Democrats controlled both houses. The vested interests involved are too powerful to implement any sane national health system directly. Really the ONLY way to do it was to pass an ungodly mess to get as much buy-in as possible to get the votes, and then, line by line, revise and modify and postpone and rework it until it approximates what the political system didn't have the courage to do right the first time.
                          What I get from this is that it's all the Republicans' fault.

                          That sounds vaguely familiar....
                          I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Maureen Dowd makes an interesting point:

                            Source: NYTimes

                            Due to the inability of the president and congressional Democrats to move their agenda through Congress, the president is having to govern through executive order and revising federal regulations.

                            Republicans have latched on to this to make the case around the country that Obama is a dictator and an imperial president. But governing through executive order isn’t a sign of strength. It’s a sign of weakness.

                            And it’s that weakness that has Democrats scared to death.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            This sums up my feelings --- that EITHER party issuing executive orders shows a real lack of leadership, and is indeed a sign of weakness.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              This really has nothing to do with the War of Northern Aggression, Jesse.

                              Answer me this, if you will... are you totally OK with all the "tweaks" Obama has Executively Ordered? I mean, it's possible you really are, so let's start there.
                              Well no, I'm not okay with doing all the digging just to watch you hand wave again. Your question makes it clear you haven't looked at the list of Executive Orders, or you wouldn't be confusing them with tweaks in the health care law. So how about this: You tell me which executive order you've got an issue with, and I'll tell you if I have an issue with it, too. Or tell me which policy he's created you don't like, instead. Or tell me which tweak in the health care law you don't think he should have made.

                              But let's not have a discussion that consists of me supplying details, and you ignoring them, and failing to provide your own in return.

                              As ever, Jesse

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Maureen Dowd makes an interesting point:

                                Source: NYTimes

                                Due to the inability of the president and congressional Democrats to move their agenda through Congress, the president is having to govern through executive order and revising federal regulations.

                                Republicans have latched on to this to make the case around the country that Obama is a dictator and an imperial president. But governing through executive order isn’t a sign of strength. It’s a sign of weakness.

                                And it’s that weakness that has Democrats scared to death.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                This sums up my feelings --- that EITHER party issuing executive orders shows a real lack of leadership, and is indeed a sign of weakness.
                                To some of us, this weakness has been common knowledge for a while:

                                Originally posted by Mencius Moldbug
                                This is because the policies of USG are not set by its politicians, but by its permanent civil service, which tends to prevail in any conflict between the two.

                                ...Civil servants defeat politicians because no politician or political appointee can harm any civil servant's career. Since civil servants, in the broad sense defined above, command numerous levers of public opinion - such as, um, the schools, the universities and the press - the converse is not the case. The result is that politicians either become housetrained or lose their jobs, or subsist in tiny backward niches whose voters couldn't give a damn what the Times thinks. (Eg, Ron Paul's district.)

                                Comment

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