Minneapolis Man Killed By Police In No-Knock Warrant 9 Secs After Entry

[Gondwanaland]

The "reason for a no-knock warrant" should be overwhelmingly powerful. In the VAST majority of cases, a little patience and strategy would be MUCH safer for all parties.

The only thing I can remotely think of as some sort of justification would be a very well evidenced case where there's a kidnapping victim (and you'd need actual evidence, not suspicion, surveillance, and quadruple checking of the address followed by another quadruple checking, because it is absurd how many of these end up going down at the wrong place because of clerical errors, miscommunication, etc.)

That's about the only time I'd be okay with it.

like even if you have a highly violent criminal I don't see the need. If you know where he is, set a perimeter and wait for him to leave to go somewhere. If you aren't sure where he is you have no business no-knocking residences to find him. (hell, it's that sort of gung ho mindset that caused Waco when they could have easily just picked Koresh up on one of his daily visits to town)

[Cow Poke]

The only thing I can remotely think of as some sort of justification would be a very well evidenced case where there's a kidnapping victim (and you'd need actual evidence, not suspicion, surveillance, and quadruple checking of the address followed by another quadruple checking, because it is absurd how many of these end up going down at the wrong place because of clerical errors, miscommunication, etc.)

That's about the only time I'd be okay with it.

like even if you have a highly violent criminal I don't see the need. If you know where he is, set a perimeter and wait for him to leave to go somewhere (hell, it's this sort of gung ho mindset that caused Waco when they could have easily just picked Koresh up on one of his daily visits to town)

No argument.

[Gondwanaland]

No-knock warrants have led to needless bloodshed multiple times. A few years ago here in Atlanta there there was one that resulted in the death of an elderly woman as she shot over their heads when they entered on what turned out to be a really nasty piece of work.

One of the cops planted some pot on a man and threatened to arrest him unless he named a dealer. He made up a name and gave them an address. After the botched raid the cops then planted drugs on the victim.

Source: Killing of Kathryn Johnson

Kathryn Johnston (June 26, 1914 – November 21, 2006)^[1] was an elderly Atlanta, Georgia, woman who was killed by undercover police officers in her home on Neal Street in northwest Atlanta on November 21, 2006, where she had lived for 17 years. Three officers had entered her home in what was later described as a 'botched' drug raid.^[2][3][4] Officers cut off burglar bars and broke down her door using a no-knock warrant.^[5] Police said Johnston fired at them and they fired in response; she fired one shot out the door over the officers' heads and they fired 39 shots, five or six of which hit her.^[3][6] None of the officers were injured by her gunfire, but Johnston was killed by the officers. Police injuries were later attributed to friendly fire from each other's weapons.^[2][3][6]

One of the officers planted marijuana in Johnston's house after the shooting.^[7][8] Later investigations found that the paperwork stating that drugs were present at Johnston's house, which had been the basis for the raid, had been falsified.^[3] The officers later admitted to having lied when they submitted cocaine as evidence claiming that they had bought it at Johnston's house.^[7] Three officers were tried for manslaughter and other charges surrounding falsification, convicted, and sentenced to ten, six, and five years, respectively.^[3]



Source

© Copyright Original Source

Pleasantly surprised to see some of them got actual legal consequences in that case (I remember hearing about it when it happened but never heard much rlse)

Too often most get off scott-free, like the cops who permanently disfigured 19 month old Bounkham Phonesavanh.

[Mountain Man]

Think they need training on what an actual dangerous dog acts like. Plenty of friendly dogs will bark to tell you to say hi and pet them.

Even a friendly dog will bark at a stranger who suddenly barges into his owner's home, and has every right to do so.

[Alien]

Even a friendly dog will bark at a stranger who suddenly barges into his owner's home, and has every right to do so.

My dog barks at anyone that passes. Good thing they don't all shoot at us.

I think no knock warrants also put police officers in a difficult position. If they enter a house and someone grabs a gun, they have no way of knowing if that person is the wanted criminal, or intends to shoot, or even if they are at the right address. All they know is they are in danger of getting shot. I agree with others here. I can't think of any situation that wouldn't be better handled by covering all the exits, quietly evacuating neighbors, using a bull horn to make sure the residents had no doubt that they were dealing with the police and not some kind of intruder, and giving them an opportunity to come out peacefully. Even in the case of people who might hide evidence, isn't that a lesser risk than the risk of killing an innocent person?

[Cow Poke]

My dog barks at anyone that passes. Good thing they don't all shoot at us.

I think no knock warrants also put police officers in a difficult position. If they enter a house and someone grabs a gun, they have no way of knowing if that person is the wanted criminal, or intends to shoot, or even if they are at the right address. All they know is they are in danger of getting shot. I agree with others here. I can't think of any situation that wouldn't be better handled by covering all the exits, quietly evacuating neighbors, using a bull horn to make sure the residents had no doubt that they were dealing with the police and not some kind of intruder, and giving them an opportunity to come out peacefully. Even in the case of people who might hide evidence, isn't that a lesser risk than the risk of killing an innocent person?

Yeah, it's hard to come up with scenario that a little bit of patience might handle better.

I think of the ultimate disaster - the Waco situation - and how many times they saw David Koresh at the local post office or hardware store...

[Ronson]

Yeah, it's hard to come up with scenario that a little bit of patience might handle better.

I think of the ultimate disaster - the Waco situation - and how many times they saw David Koresh at the local post office or hardware store...

Send in the tanks!!

SendInTheTanks.jpg

[Cow Poke]

Send in the tanks!!

SendInTheTanks.jpg

Jane Reno at her not-so-finest.

[Ronson]

Jane Reno at her not-so-finest.

I'll never forget watching some BATF agent being interviewed at the time. He was all giggly about how they were blasting some sort of Buddhist chants into the compound, hopefully depriving those inside of sleep. I hadn't heard of the BATF before that. I thought "What kind of insane, evil government agency is this? Trying to drive unstable people even further out." Then, of course, they stormed the place and brought in tanks. Roger Stone got off easy.

[Cow Poke]

I'll never forget watching some BATF agent being interviewed at the time. He was all giggly about how they were blasting some sort of Buddhist chants into the compound, hopefully depriving those inside of sleep. I hadn't heard of the BATF before that. I thought "What kind of insane, evil government agency is this? Trying to drive unstable people even further out." Then, of course, they stormed the place and brought in tanks. Roger Stone got off easy.

It looked like Janet Reno was trying to prove how tough she was, and, yeah.... It was so unreal.

Ruby Ridge, then Waco --- and at Waco, 80 people, including 22 children, died in that smoke and fire hell.

waco.jpg

[Roy]

This is something that should enrage anyone who cares about basic 2nd Amendment rights.

It should also engage anyone who doesn't care about second amendment rights.

[rogue06]

My dog barks at anyone that passes. Good thing they don't all shoot at us.

I think no knock warrants also put police officers in a difficult position. If they enter a house and someone grabs a gun, they have no way of knowing if that person is the wanted criminal, or intends to shoot, or even if they are at the right address. All they know is they are in danger of getting shot. I agree with others here. I can't think of any situation that wouldn't be better handled by covering all the exits, quietly evacuating neighbors, using a bull horn to make sure the residents had no doubt that they were dealing with the police and not some kind of intruder, and giving them an opportunity to come out peacefully. Even in the case of people who might hide evidence, isn't that a lesser risk than the risk of killing an innocent person?

When I took a few criminal law classes in college, the professor gave something along the following

Police misread a warrant and go to the wrong house with a no-knock warning. They're plain clothes and several aren't easily identifiable as cops. They kick in the door amidst much noise and confusion not making it clear they are the police. The homeowner thinks its a home invasion robbery, grabs a pistol from the nightstand and steps out of the bedroom. Seeing armed figures rummaging through his house he shoots and misses and is in turn wounded by return fire.

The question he would ask is would the homeowner be arrested given those conditions.

Everyone said no, citing various parts of the incident. I answered yes, he would be arrested.

I was correct. He likely wouldn't be charged (unless he was a felon with a gun) but he would certainly be arrested.

[rogue06]

It looked like Janet Reno was trying to prove how tough she was, and, yeah.... It was so unreal.

Ruby Ridge, then Waco --- and at Waco, 80 people, including 22 children, died in that smoke and fire hell.

waco.jpg

BATF had just been rocked with scandals before Waco and they needed a "Big Win" so they could turn the bad press they were getting around.

Didn't work.

[rogue06]

Jane Reno at her not-so-finest.

Not her best moment either:


expert-trap (1).jpg

[Cow Poke]

It should also engage anyone who doesn't care about second amendment rights.

They are free not to care, and apathy seldom generates any real response.