Quebec to impose tax on unvaccinated

[Cerebrum123]

Wow, you're desperate. She used the noun form.

More pedantry. She's going with the overall definition applied in the verb #2 section I cited, but in noun form. Better?

[Gondwanaland]

seems fair enough. The unvaccinated are the majority of cases taxing the hospital systems and hindering other more responsible members of society from getting the medical care they need. As far as I can tell, taxing those that without a valid medical exemption refuse the vaccine to help pay for the burden they unnecessarily impose on the medical system and society in general is not an unfair or unreasonable thing to do. One could make additional medical exceptions for those that had already contracted the disease prior to the widespread availability of the vaccine.

I would feel the same about taxing cigarettes and using that source of income to help cover the cost of treatment later in life for lung cancers and heart disease or taxing alcohol and using that income to help cover the costs of the inevitable liver disease and injuries in automobile crashes.

Interesting. So you would be okay with a fat tax? Anyone with an overweight or obese BMI paying a tax due to their health choices to help cover the costs of the inevitable diabetes, heart bypasses, lung issues, etc.?

[oxmixmudd]

Interesting. So you would be okay with a fat tax? Anyone with an overweight or obese BMI paying a tax due to their health choices to help cover the costs of the inevitable diabetes, heart bypasses, lung issues, etc.?

No, I believe it is a mistake to conflate obesity with the two alternate examples I list as being similar in kind to a tax on those refusing the vaccine. We all have to eat. We have no choice. Obesity arises from that necessity and a huge number of psychological and physical parameters, many of which are hereditary and/or extremely difficult to control or counter.

We don't have to smoke.. we don't have to drink alcohol.
we don't have to take the vaccine.

Further, choosing smoking, being unvaccinated, drinking to excess, can and often does put others at risk by our choice.

[Gondwanaland]

No, I believe it is a mistake to conflate obesity with the two alternate examples I list as being similar in kind to a tax on those refusing the vaccine. We all have to eat. We have no choice. Obesity arises from that necessity and a huge number of psychological and physical parameters, many of which are hereditary and/or extremely difficult to control or counter.

We don't have to smoke.. we don't have to drink alcohol.
we don't have to take the vaccine.

Further, choosing smoking, being unvaccinated, drinking to excess can often puts others at risk by our choice.

But it's not a mistake. It's precisely the same. We dont have to overeat or eat unhealthily.

People make the choice to move food from their plate to their mouth. And for that matter from the store shelf to their cart, and choose whether those are healthy or unhealthy foods.

Just like people have the choice to put that cigarette or liquor bottle to their lips. And here's the thing: obesitybby far causes more strain in medical expenses to the system than smoking or drinking do.

If we are going to punish people for their choices that lead to increased medical costs, you need to be consistent. Because right now it looks like special pleading to punish certain groups and not punish others.

edit: as to your last, vaccination does not prevent spread. Indeed much of the international spread has been by vaccinated who are the only ones allowed to travel into many countries

[Sparko]

No, I believe it is a mistake to conflate obesity with the two alternate examples I list as being similar in kind to a tax on those refusing the vaccine. We all have to eat. We have no choice. Obesity arises from that necessity and a huge number of psychological and physical parameters, many of which are hereditary and/or extremely difficult to control or counter.

We don't have to smoke.. we don't have to drink alcohol.
we don't have to take the vaccine.

Further, choosing smoking, being unvaccinated, drinking to excess, can and often does put others at risk by our choice.

Well considering that vaccinated people can catch and spread covid, I don't see how you can single out unvaccinated people as being more of a risk to others.

As I said earlier, I think if anyone would put a "tax" on unvaccinated it would be the insurance companies as they are footing the bills and they would frame it as a "discount" for the vaccinated, not an extra charge on the unvaccinated. Kind of the way they give discounts to non-smokers.

[Gondwanaland]

But it's not a mistake. It's precisely the same. We dont have to overeat or eat unhealthily.

People make the choice to move food from their plate to their mouth. And for that matter from the store shelf to their cart, and choose whether those are healthy or unhealthy foods.

Just like people have the choice to put that cigarette or liquor bottle to their lips. And here's the thing: obesitybby far causes more strain in medical expenses to the system than smoking or drinking do.

If we are going to punish people for their choices that lead to increased medical costs, you need to be consistent. Because right now it looks like special pleading to punish certain groups and not punish others.

edit: as to your last, vaccination does not prevent spread. Indeed much of the international spread has been by vaccinated who are the only ones allowed to travel into many countries

That's all not even brushing on the fact that such a "tax" FLAGRANTLY ignores science and punishes people who already had the virus and have natural immunity as a result.

[mossrose]

Meanwhile, also in Quebec:

https://www.rebelnews.com/roxham_mig...ource=therebel

A provincial lockdown has also been reimplemented for a second time. Also announced by the Legault government, was the curfew 2.0, so it was important to go and see if the illegal immigration problem was still alive following the spread of the Omicron variant.

Not only did the police themselves confirm that many illegals were crossing the border on a daily basis, but we saw it with our own eyes that day — more than 20 crossed in front of us, and this is in the space of a few hours.

According to TVA Nouvelles' sources, about 100 illegal migrants cross every day, often infected with COVID-19. Housed and transported at our expense, these migrants are taken care of by the state, which adds to the current problem.

Roxham Road is not only an illegal entry point, but also a source of propagation of COVID-19, which comes to punish the citizens. A political mismanagement that becomes costly to the taxpayers, that confines, once again, those who pay for all this nonsense

[oxmixmudd]

But it's not a mistake. It's precisely the same. We dont have to overeat or eat unhealthily.

People make the choice to move food from their plate to their mouth. And for that matter from the store shelf to their cart, and choose whether those are healthy or unhealthy foods.

Just like people have the choice to put that cigarette or liquor bottle to their lips. And here's the thing: obesitybby far causes more strain in medical expenses to the system than smoking or drinking do.

If we are going to punish people for their choices that lead to increased medical costs, you need to be consistent. Because right now it looks like special pleading to punish certain groups and not punish others.

edit: as to your last, vaccination does not prevent spread. Indeed much of the international spread has been by vaccinated who are the only ones allowed to travel into many countries

I don't agree. Your arguments trying to equate obesity with smoking and drinking ignore key differences and focus on cherry picked similarities to make the case. But that part of our discussion is akready close to and will devolve to personal accusations, so I'll end that part of the discussion here.

As for vaccination, the issue does not depend on 100% effectiveness. Before omicron over 90% of those covid cases in critical care, icu's, or deathbeds were unvaccinated. Omicron has shifted that some, but it is still the case that the vast majority taxing the medical system are in fact unvaccinated. Likewise spread is reduced if one is vaccinated. So those choosing not to be are hurting all of us and killing many that otherwise do not need to die.

[Gondwanaland]

I don't agree. Your arguments trying to equate obesity with smoking and drinking ignore key differences and focus on cherry picked similarities to make the case. But that part of our discussion is akready close to and will devolve to personal accusations, so I'll end that part of the discussion here.

It's literally the same. You're welcome to run away from that though. The special pleading is clear.

People make the choice to overeat or eat unhealthily, which leads to obesity and overweight BMIs Just as they do with smoking or imbibing alcohol. There is no functional difference here

As for vaccination, the issue does not depend on 100% effectiveness. Before omicron over 90% of those covid cases in critical care, icu's, or deathbeds were unvaccinated. Omicron has shifted that some, but it is still the case that the vast majority taxing the medical system are in fact unvaccinated. Likewise spread is reduced if one is vaccinated. So those choosing not to be are hurting all of us and killing many that otherwise do not need to die.

Why are you bent on punishing the unvaxxed for something that happens just as readily among and between the vaxxed?

Spread is NOT reduced if one is vaccinated. That has been made VERY clear.

Again, it also unscientifically punishes those who had covid and have natural immunity.

[oxmixmudd]

That's all not even brushing on the fact that such a "tax" FLAGRANTLY ignores science and punishes people who already had the virus and have natural immunity as a result.

You'd need to define what science you believe is being ignored. As for those that have had the virus, that is an implementation detail. If the science supports the idea that previous infection grants a similar immunity to the vaccine, granting those infected prior to the wide availability of the vaccines exemptions would make sense. But exempting people that refuse the vaccine, get sick and otherwise recover post the advent of wide availability of the vaccine would defeat the purpose, which is for those making that choice to take responsibility for the additional burden they willfully impose on the medical system and additional risk to others by doing so.

I should add that any such tax must recognize legitimate individual medical circumstances that would make the vaccine contraindicated for that individual.

[oxmixmudd]

...


Why are you bent on punishing the unvaxxed for something that happens just as readily among and between the vaxxed?

Spread is NOT reduced if one is vaccinated. That has been made VERY clear.

Again, it also unscientifically punishes those who had covid and have natural immunity.

Infection, especially serious infection,, does not happen just as easily or as readily amoung the unvaxxed

I am not bent on punishing anyone. In a word the issue is negligence. We are all responsible for taking reasonable precautions to ensure we do not harm others or unnecessarily damage property or the capabilities of public services. When we do that we generally are not liable for any unforeseen consequence. But if we are negligent and reckless and others are hurt or we cause damage and loss to others, we are in fact responsible. Because we have been negligent.

[rogue06]

No, I believe it is a mistake to conflate obesity with the two alternate examples I list as being similar in kind to a tax on those refusing the vaccine. We all have to eat. We have no choice. Obesity arises from that necessity and a huge number of psychological and physical parameters, many of which are hereditary and/or extremely difficult to control or counter.

We don't have to smoke.. we don't have to drink alcohol.
we don't have to take the vaccine.

Further, choosing smoking, being unvaccinated, drinking to excess, can and often does put others at risk by our choice.

One of the biggest problems is that this sets a precedent which will be inevitably expanded upon.

[mossrose]

Infection, especially serious infection,, does not happen just as easily or as readily amoung the unvaxxed

I am not bent on punishing anyone. In a word the issue is negligence. We are all responsible for taking reasonable precautions to ensure we do not harm others or unnecessarily damage property or the capabilities of public services. When we do that we generally are not liable for any unforeseen consequence. But if we are negligent and reckless and others are hurt or we cause damage and loss to others, we are in fact responsible. Because we have been negligent.

Perhaps you can explain why Quebec is planning on implementing this tax while allowing illegal, unvaccinated and untested immigrants to continue to flood across one of their US border areas? And housing the immigrants in the middle of Montreal, at least 1000 of them?

And why this has been allowed to continue since the beginning of the pandemic 2 years ago?

And how they can punish their own citizens while allowing non-citizens to come in and spread whatever diseases they have, while housing and feeding them on the taxpayer dollar?

Is that not negligent?

[Gondwanaland]

You'd need to define what science you believe is being ignored.

the science of natural immunity and memory cells is well established and has been for decades.

As for those that have had the virus, that is an implementation detail. If the science supports the idea that previous infection grants a similar immunity to the vaccine, granting those infected prior to the wide availability of the vaccines exemptions would make sense. But exempting people that refuse the vaccine, get sick and otherwise recover post the advent of wide availability of the vaccine would defeat the purpose, which is for those making that choice to take responsibility for the additional burden they willfully impose on the medical system and additional risk to
others by doing so.

Again, no different than a fat tax.

I should add that any such tax must recognize legitimate individual medical circumstances that would make the vaccine contraindicated for that individual.

Doesn't appear this one will.

[Gondwanaland]

Infection, especially serious infection,, does not happen just as easily or as readily amoung the unvaxxed

but spread does. And with omicron, it's so mild there's not much difference there either

I am not bent on punishing anyone. In a word the issue is negligence. We are all responsible for taking reasonable precautions to ensure we do not harm others or unnecessarily damage property or the capabilities of public services. When we do that we generally are not liable for any unforeseen consequence. But if we are negligent and reckless and others are hurt or we cause damage and loss to others, we are in fact responsible. Because we have been negligent.

Just as we are responsible for making reasonable eating choices and not becoming obese and causing countless expenses to the medical system. But you don't want to hold those people responsible when their negligent and reckless choices cost society because they've been negligent.