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Quebec to impose tax on unvaccinated

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  • #61
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

    That is not how insurance works. insurance rates are based on actuarial tables with certain assumptions built in about the relative frequency of events that will incur costs.. individuals that purposefully or through negligence violate those assumptions increase the total financial burden across those insured. Most of the time insurance companies comoensate by charging more to the individuals that are 'outside the box' as it were, or they just cancel their policy.

    It is no different with government run healthcare in that regard. Those individuals that refuse to get the vaccine are purposefully putting the system 'in the red'. The only options are to make everyone pay for their irresponsibility by raising everyone's taxes, or just focus on recovering the cost from the irresponsible parties.





    Unfortunately for omicron, 95% or more would be required. Which means there will still be significant additional cost caused by the unvaccinated.

    The other thing you are overlooking is that the pandemic is a special case situation that affects the entire population. You can't apply policies used to deal with spurious anomalies within the population to a situation that affects the entire population.

    Bottom line: those refusing to be vaccinated are raising the cost of caring for the sick, destroying the goodwill of the medical professionals by mocking their own stress in having to deal with so much sickness and death, forcing them to unnecessarily deal with a majority population that is there not due to misfortune but rather stubborn headed disrespect for themselves and others. And it is rational and right to ask them to bear some responsibility for their recklessness.
    Stop patronizing me about my own country’s healthcare system. I’ve lived with it for decades and know better than you how it works.

    After 2 years of throwing money at COVID, it’s time to let the virus run its course and become what it will be, with us like the seasonal flu. Omicron is far less dangerous than previous scare-ients and for a government to play this little dirty trick now is absolutely wrong.



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    • #62
      This.

      0FAC476A-10E1-4BAA-B2A0-5E64627FE0DD.jpeg


      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by mossrose View Post

        Stop patronizing me about my own country’s healthcare system. I’ve lived with it for decades and know better than you how it works.

        After 2 years of throwing money at COVID, it’s time to let the virus run its course and become what it will be, with us like the seasonal flu. Omicron is far less dangerous than previous scare-ients and for a government to play this little dirty trick now is absolutely wrong.
        this isn't the flu. Omicron is still 5 to 10x as deadly using .05 to .1% as a typical flu mortality and .5% as the omicrom mortality. Our hospitals are set up to handle .1% and due to cost are not capable of handling much more than that.

        But it is so contagious you'll likely get your wish.

        As for patronizing, I'm going to ignore that. Your post exhibited ignorance about why a nationwide pandemic can not be treated like normal individual variation which can be assessed and anticipated statistically. My post was not aimed at telling you how Your system in specific works, but rather correcting that general misconception which applies to any medical insurance system in a global pandemic, national or private.
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-16-2022, 09:57 AM.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

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        • #64
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

          this isn't the flue. Omicron is still 5 to 10x as deadly. But it is so contagious you'll likely get your wish.

          As for patronizing, I'm going to ignore that. Your post exhibited ignorance about why a nationwide pandemic can not be treated like normal individual variation which can be assessed and anticipated statistically. My post was not aimed at telling you how Your system in specific works, but rather correcting that general misconception which applies to any medical insurance system in a global pandemic, national or private.
          I didn’t say it is the flu, I said it is like the flu. And I do not exhibit any more ignorance about a global pandemic than you about it. How could I possibly be ignorant about it when it’s drummed into our little ears day and night for 2 years. You on the other hand have exhibited ignorance about MY country’s health care system.
          Last edited by mossrose; 01-16-2022, 10:10 AM.


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          • #65
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post

            I didn’t say it is the flu, I said it is like the flu. And I do not exhibit any more ignorance about a global pandemic than you about it. How could I possibly be ignorant about it when it’s drummed into our little ears day and night for 2 years. You on the other hand have exhibited ignorance abour
            t MY country’s health care system.
            I'm not interested in petty fights mossy. I'm sorry you were offended by my post.
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

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            • #66
              Moderated By: rogue06

              I have moved Dave's derail to here:https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...65#post1343065

              ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
              Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.


              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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              • #67
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                an insurance company that does not act to reduce its liability to those that purposefully abuse its availability is a bankrupt insurance company.

                That said, many private insurers have been sued for using that reality to abuse its customers for the sake of higher profits.

                But in this case where people are stubbornheadedly refusing a lifesaving vaccine, the problem is those stubborn headed and irresponsible people.
                There are serious questions about the vaccine that I can understand. I'm 62, so the vaccine makes perfect sense for me. But most people in their 20s (despite your "specific experience") are not affected, and the percentage of even hospitalization is extremely low. So why should these people be taxed for something that almost assuredly will not require hospitalization?

                A key reason as many as possible need to be vaccinated as an act of goodwill towards those that would not be asymptomatic and would be struggling for each breath having caught it from them.

                ]A half truth. While the mortality is declining, over 800,000 have died. And I can tell you many people I've known, including one 20 year old, suffered greatly when they caught it. A mortality in the 1% range is really the worst. It means there are too few deaths for it to universally affect us all, spurring us to action, and it leaves open the possibility of rampant misinformation being believed while at the same time there are too many deaths for the medical system not to be overwhelmed by it.

                I would have hoped you would understand that just because your specific experience in the hospital was not overwhelming does not mean that was not the case elsewhere, or that it was not a real problem other places.
                But as I just explained, we had a major outbreak of the Delta strain in my region, and the hospitals were not overburdened. They were prepared. And the overall hospitalizations weren't as bad as expected in any case. PLUS - my region is notoriously unvaccinated. So if you can explain that combination I will be quite interested.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                  There are serious questions about the vaccine that I can understand. I'm 62, so the vaccine makes perfect sense for me. But most people in their 20s (despite your "specific experience") are not affected, and the percentage of even hospitalization is extremely low. So why should these people be taxed for something that almost assuredly will not require hospitalization?
                  Because the vaccine does not offer 100% effective protection against the virus, and the only way to drive the spread of the vaccine down is to reduce it's rate of spread to <1. The ONLY way to do that is to get most people immune at the same time. Leaving large numbers of the population unvaccinated allows the virus to continue to spread and mutate. Because being vaccinated is not just about protecting oneself, but about protecting everone.


                  But as I just explained, we had a major outbreak of the Delta strain in my region, and the hospitals were not overburdened. They were prepared. And the overall hospitalizations weren't as bad as expected in any case. PLUS - my region is notoriously unvaccinated. So if you can explain that combination I will be quite interested.
                  From statistics and the study of viral spread, one doesn't need an explanation as to why some places might fare better than others. There are many factors that contribute to spread and severity of the disease. You guys were lucky enough not to be overwhelmed. You need to thank God for that, not make incorrect or rash conclusions about what the virus is 'really' doing. There are plenty or areas that have been overwhelmed, and there are large numbers of medical professionals quitting because of burnout, leaving us even more exposed and placing an even greater burden on those that remain.
                  Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-16-2022, 12:40 PM.
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                    Because the vaccine does not offer 100% effective protection against the virus, and the only way to drive the spread of the vaccine down is to reduce it's rate of spread to <1. The ONLY way to do that is to get most people immune at the same time. Leaving large numbers of the population unvaccinated allows the virus to continue to spread and mutate. Because being vaccinated is not just about protecting oneself, but about protecting everone.




                    If one understands statistics and viral spread, one doesn't need an explanation as to why some places might fare better than others. There are many factors that contribute to spread and severity of the disease. You guys were lucky enough not to be overwhelmed. You need to thank God for that, not make incorrect or rash conclusions about what the virus is 'really' doing. There are plenty or areas that have been overwhelmed, and there are large numbers of medical professionals quitting because of burnout, leaving us even more exposed and placing an even greater burden on those that remain.
                    So Quebec has close to 80% of their population vaccinated, probably more now since they’ve threatened punitive measures. As I asked before, how much more have to be vaccinated before it’s enough?

                    How many vaccinations will someone need to get?

                    When do we start vaccinating newborns, or 1 year olds?

                    When will it be enough?


                    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                      So Quebec has close to 80% of their population vaccinated, probably more now since they’ve threatened punitive measures. As I asked before, how much more have to be vaccinated before it’s enough?
                      I answered your question. The virus has mutated. 80% would have likely been good with the original strain. It is not good enough with Delta, and it is not good enough for Omicron. But, with Omicrom, though most will likely get it, the vaccinated will still be much less likely to need hospitalization and less likely to die. At some point so many people will have been sick vaccination may not matter anymore - natural immunity may fill the gap. That is yet to be seen.

                      How many vaccinations will someone need to get?
                      That will depend on how effective our residual immunity is at preventing hospitalization and death. And it will depend on how quickly and in which direction the virus mutates. With so many resistent to vaccination and willing to believe the medical profession is out to get them, we may never gain control. That is a sad possibility, but ignorance does tend to kill a lot of people over time.

                      When do we start vaccinating newborns, or 1 year olds?

                      When will it be enough?
                      Do you ask that about the current infant vaccinations? What is different that makes you and so many others feel so hostile to this vaccine, whereas we are all just fine with our kids getting the MMR vaccine, or Hep B or other vaccines.

                      Birth-18 Years Immunization Schedule | CDC

                      Kids don't miss two weeks of school anymore for chicken pox. Adults who never had it or were not vaccinated don't normally have to worry much about how devastating it can be to get it as an adult. Why, because we vaccinate our kids for it. What about measles. It's less deadly than covid overall, but we vaccinate children for it. Should we stop that too?
                      Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-16-2022, 01:00 PM.
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                        Because the vaccine does not offer 100% effective protection against the virus, and the only way to drive the spread of the vaccine down is to reduce it's rate of spread to <1. The ONLY way to do that is to get most people immune at the same time. Leaving large numbers of the population unvaccinated allows the virus to continue to spread and mutate. Because being vaccinated is not just about protecting oneself, but about protecting everone.
                        But if people still contract the virus when vaccinated (only reducing the worst symptoms) it is still making its way through the population and mutating. Plus, a person who has had it and recovered should have better immunity than a vaccine anyway, so should Quebec tax these people too?

                        From statistics and the study of viral spread, one doesn't need an explanation as to why some places might fare better than others. There are many factors that contribute to spread and severity of the disease. You guys were lucky enough not to be overwhelmed. You need to thank God for that, not make incorrect or rash conclusions about what the virus is 'really' doing.
                        My area was a good petri dish: A Delta outbreak + low vaccination rate + hospitals were not overwhelmed. What that says (if nothing else) is that the hospitals were prepared. My wife (who worked in the ICUs at the time) said nearly all of the patients were in their mid 60s and older. That says something more about indiscriminate vaccinations without age considerations or having natural immunity.

                        There are plenty or areas that have been overwhelmed, and there are large numbers of medical professionals quitting because of burnout, leaving us even more exposed and placing an even greater burden on those that remain.
                        Probably all in the government-sponsored universal healthcare system.

                        (ETA: I'll back off now since you are already in battle with Mossrose. I don't want to dogpile)
                        Last edited by Ronson; 01-16-2022, 01:01 PM.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                          But if people still contract the virus when vaccinated (only reducing the worst symptoms) it is still making its way through the population and mutating. Plus, a person who has had it and recovered should have better immunity than a vaccine anyway, so should Quebec tax these people too?
                          Vaccination reduces spread and length of disease. But at this point with all the people refusing vaccinations and the virus having mutated to the point it would require 99% vaccination with an omicron specific vaccine, even I have lost hope we can actually control it.


                          My area was a good petri dish: A Delta outbreak + low vaccination rate + hospitals were not overwhelmed. What that says (if nothing else) is that the hospitals were prepared. My wife (who worked in the ICUs at the time) said nearly all of the patients were in their mid 60s and older. That says something more about indiscriminate vaccinations without age considerations or having natural immunity.
                          That doesn't tell you who gave those 60 year olds the disease, or if a higher vaccination rate would have kept them out of the hosipital because the young waitress or store clerk that gave it to them was vaccinated. Again, it's not just about protecting ourselves, it is about protecting the vulnerable. Some of those vulnerable are younger, but most are older.


                          Probably all in the government-sponsored universal healthcare system.

                          (ETA: I'll back off now since you are already in battle with Mossrose. I don't want to dogpile)
                          Thank you - I do appreciate that, though as long as we are just debating facts and it doesn't get personal, it's fine.

                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Ronson
                            (ETA: I'll back off now since you are already in battle with Mossrose. I don't want to dogpile)
                            There's no battle. I’ll just be ignoring oxmixmudd in this thread. You are free to post here.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                              Vaccination reduces spread and length of disease. But at this point with all the people refusing vaccinations and the virus having mutated to the point it would require 99% vaccination with an omicron specific vaccine, even I have lost hope we can actually control it.

                              That doesn't tell you who gave those 60 year olds the disease, or if a higher vaccination rate would have kept them out of the hosipital because the young waitress or store clerk that gave it to them was vaccinated. Again, it's not just about protecting ourselves, it is about protecting the vulnerable. Some of those vulnerable are younger, but most are older.

                              Thank you - I do appreciate that, though as long as we are just debating facts and it doesn't get personal, it's fine.
                              OK, well, I was mostly done.

                              This really boils down to political philosophy. People who think unvaccinated people are a threat are the same people who have socialistic tendencies; That we are all part of a community, and the good of the community outweighs the rights of the individual. I don't care that some of my family and friends aren't vaccinated, or any strangers in the general population. That's their choice and I respect that. Also, if they want to drink their livers into a brick, or live on French fries, that's their choice too. I'm not going to live my life in fear of them clogging up hospital facilities.

                              I remember when helmet laws took effect in California. The argument was that people are more apt to die or require more hospitalization if they have a wreck on a motorcycle. And then that transferred over to bicycles. It probably applies to skateboards by now. The nanny state knows no limits on how to control the population. It makes me cringe when government presumes to know what is best for me, like all those dead covid cases that Cuomo forced into nursing homes. THAT'S what government does best, it makes things worse.

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                              • #75
                                This is fitting for those who choose to not be vaccinated.

                                Peanuts_01-08-1972.jpg


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