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Socialism good or bad and why?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Esther View Post
    Thanks for the responses.

    Are taxes not supposed to do the job of caring for the poor, disabled, old etc? Those who cannot work or when there are simply no jobs available. The market reaches saturation at some point and there are only so many jobs and entrepreneurial job creations etc?
    In the Christian community, we are supposed to take care of one another. We haven't done such a good job of that, so the government stepped in. I have never begrudged our government helping those less fortunate - I just wish they didn't do it in such an incredibly wasteful manner.

    Leaving it up to, at bottom, selfish individuals is surely not going to address the problem of poverty?
    Correct.

    Here in SA we have too many people, too few jobs, too many beggars, too much crime, not anywhere near enough shelters.

    I look at the (in our case) corrupt government to address the issue to benefit our country as a whole but they do not. It seems an insoluble problem till the Lord Jesus Christ returns and governs.

    Jesus did say we will always have the poor with us.
    EGGzackly!

    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post

      Except when people do it wrong! Which seems to be everyone so far.
      Yah.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post

        We do, however, see a form of socialism in the early church in Acts. That said, I agree with MM above that as a form of government it is doomed to failure. Coerced socialism is bad, voluntarily giving what you have to help others in need is good.
        Voluntary not forced by the governing body or majority vote that all do it. those Christians that donated their property did it from thier hearts not because someone forced them to, which is what God wants you to do. and the only punishment that was meted out by the Holy Spirit was becuase someone lied to make himself look more pious then others.
        Last edited by RumTumTugger; 01-12-2022, 01:30 PM.

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        • #49
          Was thinking about Saudi Arabia today where they apparently have a stipend and a rich population where many do not work. There is no need. So I guess this means there is such a thing as an over-wealthy country where the rich give to the less rich.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Esther View Post
            Was thinking about Saudi Arabia today where they apparently have a stipend and a rich population where many do not work. There is no need. So I guess this means there is such a thing as an over-wealthy country where the rich give to the less rich.
            Well they certainly are not socialist. They are an Absolute Monarchy.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Esther View Post
              Was thinking about Saudi Arabia today where they apparently have a stipend and a rich population where many do not work. There is no need. So I guess this means there is such a thing as an over-wealthy country where the rich give to the less rich.
              It is in the interest of the ruling group in any system to make sure enough wealth "trickles down" to keep the masses content. Ignore that and you end up with some form of backlash, from pressure for reform to out and out violent revolution. Sensible oligarchs realize that letting others have some share in the cake, even if it means being very very rich instead of obscenely rich, beats hanging from the lamp posts. Look at the USA last century. There was the "gilded age" where the rich forgot or never knew this principle. That was followed by FDR's welfare reforms (WW2 helped also). Then there was a period of relative prosperity for the middle class, with very high progressive taxation I would note, where the rich were still doing OK. Now, the principle seems to have been forgotten again ...

              On the main subject (socialism). I would say the dictionary definition given earlier is nearer to communism than the common accepted definition of socialism. I see communism as a noble idea (of many) that crashed on the rocks of human nature, as all social reforms tend to do, unfortunately. Which is enough to avoid it, certainly.

              Using the common idea of socialism, I would argue that it has worked quite well in many European countries for many years. It's under siege now as all systems that don't directly benefit the rich and powerful will always be.

              Let me float my theory of all human interaction, which I came up in a lighthearted way years ago, and has been more and more confirmed as time went by. In it's simplest form, it's

              The alpha monkeys versus the rest.

              In all societies there are those who want power above everything. You see it from relatively local groups like PTAs up to governments. These people seek power over others, and use the best available means to gain it. In a capitalist society it's usually but not always money. Whenever people see through their little games and manage to set up rules to limit their ambition, they work diligently to subvert these rules. Thus, given that they are often very clever and dedicated people, and most non-alpha people prefer to get on with their lives and don't notice what is going on until it is too late, systems of government of all stripes tend to be either destroyed or badly damaged by them.

              I invite critique!

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Alien View Post

                It is in the interest of the ruling group in any system to make sure enough wealth "trickles down" to keep the masses content. Ignore that and you end up with some form of backlash, from pressure for reform to out and out violent revolution. Sensible oligarchs realize that letting others have some share in the cake, even if it means being very very rich instead of obscenely rich, beats hanging from the lamp posts. Look at the USA last century. There was the "gilded age" where the rich forgot or never knew this principle. That was followed by FDR's welfare reforms (WW2 helped also). Then there was a period of relative prosperity for the middle class, with very high progressive taxation I would note, where the rich were still doing OK. Now, the principle seems to have been forgotten again ...

                On the main subject (socialism). I would say the dictionary definition given earlier is nearer to communism than the common accepted definition of socialism. I see communism as a noble idea (of many) that crashed on the rocks of human nature, as all social reforms tend to do, unfortunately. Which is enough to avoid it, certainly.

                Using the common idea of socialism, I would argue that it has worked quite well in many European countries for many years. It's under siege now as all systems that don't directly benefit the rich and powerful will always be.

                Let me float my theory of all human interaction, which I came up in a lighthearted way years ago, and has been more and more confirmed as time went by. In it's simplest form, it's

                The alpha monkeys versus the rest.

                In all societies there are those who want power above everything. You see it from relatively local groups like PTAs up to governments. These people seek power over others, and use the best available means to gain it. In a capitalist society it's usually but not always money. Whenever people see through their little games and manage to set up rules to limit their ambition, they work diligently to subvert these rules. Thus, given that they are often very clever and dedicated people, and most non-alpha people prefer to get on with their lives and don't notice what is going on until it is too late, systems of government of all stripes tend to be either destroyed or badly damaged by them.

                I invite critique!
                One thing I read is that many of those who rise up to run companies or government are actually organizational psychopaths.

                The organizational psychopath

                Organizational psychopaths crave a god-like feeling of power and control over other people. They prefer to work at the very highest levels of their organizations, allowing them to control the greatest number of people. Psychopaths who are political leaders, managers, and CEOs fall into this category.[5]

                Organizational psychopaths generally appear to be intelligent, sincere, powerful, charming, witty, and entertaining communicators. They quickly assess what people want to hear and then create stories that fit those expectations. They will con people into doing their work for them, take credit for other people's work and even assign their work to junior staff members. They have low patience when dealing with others, display shallow emotions, are unpredictable, undependable and fail to take responsibility if something goes wrong that is their fault.[5]

                According to a study from the University of Notre Dame published in the Journal of Business Ethics, psychopaths have a natural advantage in workplaces overrun by abusive supervision, and are more likely to thrive under abusive bosses, being more resistant to stress, including interpersonal abuse, and having less of a need for positive relationships than others.[13][14][15]

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycho...nal_psychopath

                Senior Executives Are More Likely To Be Psychopaths
                https://www.forbes.com/sites/stephan...h=add772547c45


                I am sure that is true whether you are talking about Captitalism, Socialism, Nazism, Communism...


                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Esther View Post
                  Was thinking about Saudi Arabia today where they apparently have a stipend and a rich population where many do not work. There is no need. So I guess this means there is such a thing as an over-wealthy country where the rich give to the less rich.
                  Alaska.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                    Alaska.
                    True, we do have the Permanent Fund up here (as an aside, the politicians in Juneau are trying to make it unpermanent and use it for state budget) but it isn't from altruistic rich. The funds are from an initial investment of oil money and only the interest is disbursed. It's hardly enough to live on or build a budget around. Last year it amounted to somewhere south of $100/month.
                    We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                      One thing I read is that many of those who rise up to run companies or government are actually organizational psychopaths.

                      The organizational psychopath

                      Organizational psychopaths crave a god-like feeling of power and control over other people. They prefer to work at the very highest levels of their organizations, allowing them to control the greatest number of people. Psychopaths who are political leaders, managers, and CEOs fall into this category.[5]

                      Organizational psychopaths generally appear to be intelligent, sincere, powerful, charming, witty, and entertaining communicators. They quickly assess what people want to hear and then create stories that fit those expectations. They will con people into doing their work for them, take credit for other people's work and even assign their work to junior staff members. They have low patience when dealing with others, display shallow emotions, are unpredictable, undependable and fail to take responsibility if something goes wrong that is their fault.[5]

                      According to a study from the University of Notre Dame published in the Journal of Business Ethics, psychopaths have a natural advantage in workplaces overrun by abusive supervision, and are more likely to thrive under abusive bosses, being more resistant to stress, including interpersonal abuse, and having less of a need for positive relationships than others.[13][14][15]

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycho...nal_psychopath

                      Senior Executives Are More Likely To Be Psychopaths
                      https://www.forbes.com/sites/stephan...h=add772547c45


                      I am sure that is true whether you are talking about Captitalism, Socialism, Nazism, Communism...
                      Exactly. Money to these people is not an end in itself but is better seen as a scorecard as they compete with others of their stripe. So, a billionaire who seeks more billions realizes that he can't buy anything with another billion that he can't already buy (in terms of quality of life). He simply wants to be the guy with most billions. Ayn Rand puts this into the mouth of one of her characters in Atlas Shrugged, and approved of it!

                      I can recommend a book, The Sociopath Next Door (forgotten the author, she's a psychiatrist).
                      Last edited by Alien; 01-13-2022, 03:49 PM. Reason: Alien

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post

                        True, we do have the Permanent Fund up here (as an aside, the politicians in Juneau are trying to make it unpermanent and use it for state budget) but it isn't from altruistic rich. The funds are from an initial investment of oil money and only the interest is disbursed. It's hardly enough to live on or build a budget around. Last year it amounted to somewhere south of $100/month.
                        I was hoping you'd weigh in --- I only kindasorta know about this.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Alien View Post

                          Exactly. Money to these people is not an end in itself but is better seen as a scorecard as they compete with others of their stripe. So, a billionaire who seeks more billions realizes that he can't buy anything with another billion that he can't already buy (in terms of quality of life). He simply wants to be the guy with most billions. Ayn Rand puts this into the mouth of one of her characters in Atlas Shrugged, and approved of it!

                          I can recommend a book, The Sociopath Next Door (forgotten the author, she's a psychiatrist).
                          I remember reading that somewhere years ago. No surprise as many people are competitive and they want to measure how they do against their competition. I suspect you can add in purchases of yachts, private planes, 6 mansions, etc. as part of this.

                          I can't remember what the number was. Up to a point, your income does help you feel happier but after that point, it makes no difference. I sometimes wonder what I would do if I had a million dollars a year income.
                          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                            I remember reading that somewhere years ago. No surprise as many people are competitive and they want to measure how they do against their competition. I suspect you can add in purchases of yachts, private planes, 6 mansions, etc. as part of this.

                            I can't remember what the number was. Up to a point, your income does help you feel happier but after that point, it makes no difference. I sometimes wonder what I would do if I had a million dollars a year income.
                            After I shared it with friends and family, I think I would just keep giving the surplus to charity or something. At least that is what I hope I would do. I always liked that prayer in Proverbs 30:

                            7 “Two things I ask of you, Lord;
                            do not refuse me before I die:
                            8 Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
                            give me neither poverty nor riches,
                            but give me only my daily bread.
                            9 Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you
                            and say, ‘Who is the Lord?’
                            Or I may become poor and steal,
                            and so dishonor the name of my God.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                              After I shared it with friends and family, I think I would just keep giving the surplus to charity or something. At least that is what I hope I would do. I always liked that prayer in Proverbs 30:

                              7 “Two things I ask of you, Lord;
                              do not refuse me before I die:
                              8 Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
                              give me neither poverty nor riches,
                              but give me only my daily bread.
                              9 Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you
                              and say, ‘Who is the Lord?’
                              Or I may become poor and steal,
                              and so dishonor the name of my God.
                              I've always liked the Proverbs 30 prayer.

                              One can hope that they would spend riches well, but you just don't know until you get them.
                              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                                I've always liked the Proverbs 30 prayer.

                                One can hope that they would spend riches well, but you just don't know until you get them.
                                Yep. My aunt cared for a rich old lady who left her a lot of money when she died. She blew it on frivolous stuff within a year or two.

                                I am more worried about me being too stingy than in blowing it on nonsense. I tend to be a cheapskate and won't spend money until I really have to. I would probably hoard the money instead of using it to help others.


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