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Socialism good or bad and why?

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  • #91
    I agree with Cow Poke that the big problem is government inefficiency and ability to mess it up.

    Another area we generally expect government to do is education of children from Pre-K to 12th grade. My city school district is smoking hole in the ground disaster. The kids are barely educated, and we seem to get a new school board leader every 2 years. And, please, no whining about there not being enough money. There's plenty of money if the administration wasn't absorbing so much of it.

    Alien if the government is going to do something, they need to get their quality up.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post

      Esther here is what a citizen of Denmark has to say that.
      My sister lives with her Danish husband in Copenhagen. They both have MS, more advanced in her case. Every day people come in to their apartment three times. In the morning, to get them out of bed. In the middle of the day to get lunch and clean. And in the evening to put them to bed again. They are both catheterized so they don't need to get out of bed at night. This costs them nothing. They have wheelchairs, supplied free. Medications and hospital visits are free.

      Denmark may not be socialist according to the strict dictionary definition, but it really is by the loose definition that people use here, which is to do with how much the government looks after those in need.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Alien View Post

        My sister lives with her Danish husband in Copenhagen. They both have MS, more advanced in her case. Every day people come in to their apartment three times. In the morning, to get them out of bed. In the middle of the day to get lunch and clean. And in the evening to put them to bed again. They are both catheterized so they don't need to get out of bed at night. This costs them nothing. They have wheelchairs, supplied free. Medications and hospital visits are free.
        Except that it's not actually free. Somebody is paying for it, and it's not the government, it's the tax payers who are saddled with one of the highest tax rates in the world which currently stands at a staggering 55.9%.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
          I agree with Cow Poke that the big problem is government inefficiency and ability to mess it up.

          Another area we generally expect government to do is education of children from Pre-K to 12th grade. My city school district is smoking hole in the ground disaster. The kids are barely educated, and we seem to get a new school board leader every 2 years. And, please, no whining about there not being enough money. There's plenty of money if the administration wasn't absorbing so much of it.

          Alien if the government is going to do something, they need to get their quality up.
          In many cases - PARTICULARLY EDUCATION - the problem is public sector unions. You can't fire bad teachers (or cops) because the unions act only to protect their dues-paying members, not the public that they're charged with serving.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

            In many cases - PARTICULARLY EDUCATION - the problem is public sector unions. You can't fire bad teachers (or cops) because the unions act only to protect their dues-paying members, not the public that they're charged with serving.
            Generally, I think you're right and we have that issue here. However, it does look like my city school board is well less than competent even with that restriction.
            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

              Generally, I think you're right and we have that issue here. However, it does look like my city school board is well less than competent even with that restriction.
              Your city should join the wave of municipalities that are voting out school board members and demanding quality from the schools.

              (yeah, easier said than done, but there's a LOT of that going on now around the country)
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                Your city should join the wave of municipalities that are voting out school board members and demanding quality from the schools.

                (yeah, easier said than done, but there's a LOT of that going on now around the country)
                My city is too Democratic for an alternative to be voted in.
                "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                  Except that it's not actually free. Somebody is paying for it, and it's not the government, it's the tax payers who are saddled with one of the highest tax rates in the world which currently stands at a staggering 55.9%.
                  Yes of course it's not free in that sense. It's supplied to the consumer at no cost. And that's how governments pay for everything, so what. The point is that the people of Denmark, as a group, have agreed to share the cost of health care for all. If that's what they want, how can you say it's wrong (for them)?

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Alien View Post

                    Yes of course it's not free in that sense. It's supplied to the consumer at no cost. And that's how governments pay for everything, so what. The point is that the people of Denmark, as a group, have agreed to share the cost of health care for all. If that's what they want, how can you say it's wrong (for them)?
                    No, it is not "supplied to the consumer at no cost", it is supplied to the consumer at a jaw dropping 55.9% tax rate. It's quite a trick governments have pulled to take people's money and then convince them that they're getting something "at no cost".
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Alien View Post

                      Yes of course it's not free in that sense. It's supplied to the consumer at no cost. And that's how governments pay for everything, so what. The point is that the people of Denmark, as a group, have agreed to share the cost of health care for all. If that's what they want, how can you say it's wrong (for them)?
                      Of course, reports such as this, which note the attitude of people who are actually affected by their chosen system are beneath notice. So also the figure of 55.9% as the tax rate, which is the aggregate of all taxes - how that would compare with the aggregate taxes paid in America, I am not sure. Then there is the matter of things that Danes don't have to fund in addition to taxes - education expenses, health insurance etc, which would have to be added to the taxation costs for Americans to establish parity. It is also too much to ask that people consider why Danes, among the most highly educated people in the world (not surprising really, given the lack of financial impediments) should consider their system worthy of respect.

                      But in some people's little worlds, anything that isn't done in accord with their preferences is unseemly or perhaps even evil. The kind of mind-set that refuses to allow dissent, or a statue to stand when you don't agree with the honoured party's politics.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                        My city is too Democratic for an alternative to be voted in.
                        Ah, so sorry.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                          No, it is not "supplied to the consumer at no cost", it is supplied to the consumer at a jaw dropping 55.9% tax rate. It's quite a trick governments have pulled to take people's money and then convince them that they're getting something "at no cost".
                          OK, it is supplied at no cost to the consumer at the point of consumption. I thought I made that clear. Danes don't think they are getting something for nothing. They all know they pay taxes (how could they not?). My point is that they are in general happy to pay taxes in return for what they get.

                          It's a different attitude to life, MM. That doesn't make it bad. It would be bad if it was forced on them and they didn't want it, but it's a democracy. If they don't like it they can change it.

                          If you don't want it here, that's fine, stay here.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            Of course, reports such as this, which note the attitude of people who are actually affected by their chosen system are beneath notice. So also the figure of 55.9% as the tax rate, which is the aggregate of all taxes - how that would compare with the aggregate taxes paid in America, I am not sure. Then there is the matter of things that Danes don't have to fund in addition to taxes - education expenses, health insurance etc, which would have to be added to the taxation costs for Americans to establish parity. It is also too much to ask that people consider why Danes, among the most highly educated people in the world (not surprising really, given the lack of financial impediments) should consider their system worthy of respect.

                            But in some people's little worlds, anything that isn't done in accord with their preferences is unseemly or perhaps even evil. The kind of mind-set that refuses to allow dissent, or a statue to stand when you don't agree with the honoured party's politics.
                            Phew! Thank you. Someone gets it. That's an interesting article, btw.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Alien View Post

                              OK, it is supplied at no cost to the consumer at the point of consumption. I thought I made that clear. Danes don't think they are getting something for nothing. They all know they pay taxes (how could they not?). My point is that they are in general happy to pay taxes in return for what they get.

                              It's a different attitude to life, MM. That doesn't make it bad. It would be bad if it was forced on them and they didn't want it, but it's a democracy. If they don't like it they can change it.

                              If you don't want it here, that's fine, stay here.
                              OK, Mr Knows Everything Danish!!! Some questions...

                              A) Do those canned hams really come from Denmark?
                              2) How bout those little sugar cookies in the tins?
                              C) Do they call it "socialized medicine"?
                              iv) Are there the "wait 9 months for surgery" horror stories that we cite in other "socialized medicine" countries?
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Alien View Post
                                OK, it is supplied at no cost to the consumer at the point of consumption. I thought I made that clear. Danes don't think they are getting something for nothing. They all know they pay taxes (how could they not?). My point is that they are in general happy to pay taxes in return for what they get.

                                It's a different attitude to life, MM. That doesn't make it bad. It would be bad if it was forced on them and they didn't want it, but it's a democracy. If they don't like it they can change it.

                                If you don't want it here, that's fine, stay here.
                                Not forced on them, huh? So individuals can opt out of the "free" stuff and pay a lower tax rate?
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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