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Compulsory vaccines vs Workplace mandates vs Vaccine passports, which is best?

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  • Compulsory vaccines vs Workplace mandates vs Vaccine passports, which is best?

    We're seeing governments around the world try three approaches to forcibly encourage people to get vaccinated:
    1. Declaring vaccination compulsory. e.g. Austria is doing this, and saying anyone who doesn't comply will be fined ~$4000 USD every 3 months.
    2. Workplace mandates. e.g. Biden tried to do this with his order that federal contractors needed to be vaccinated (or tested extremely often). Companies would often fire non-compliant staff, although sometimes reassigning them to another position might be an option.
    3. Vaccine passports. e.g. Some countries have issued documentation to vaccinated people, and unvaccinated people who do not have that documentation are not allowed in public indoor areas.
    In this thread I would like to discuss which of these three systems people think is the best and why. We can also discuss what enforcement method is best for the given system.


    As thread starter I'm asking that there be no anti-vax postings or whining about government overreach and loss of freedoms in this thread. There are other thread where people can complain about the vaccines and governments taking away freedoms. This thread is about the comparing the 3 major approaches Western governments are taking to forcibly increase vaccination rates.
    6
    Make vaccination compulsory nationwide and enforce with fines
    16.67%
    1
    Make vaccination required in specific workplaces and enforce with firings
    16.67%
    1
    Issue 'passports' to the vaccinated, which are checked before entering public indoor areas
    66.67%
    4
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

  • #2
    My own approach to this is to focus on efficiency and effectiveness. The amount of person-hours spent checking passports (and the worker-hours that have to be assigned by local businesses to do those checks) can be huge.

    While workplace mandates might have some effect, even if rolled out to all workplaces nationwide they won't necessarily get the vaccination rates high enough, and a substantial number of person-hours will be spent in acrimonious arguments between employers and recalcitrant employees.

    It seems like by far the most efficient and effective system by far is always going to be just making the vaccine compulsory nationally. I don't have a strong view on what the ideal enforcement system (if any) is... fines seem okay, but equally you could declare it compulsory and say you're "working on" what the punishment for non-compliance will be and happen to never get around to actually declaring what the punishment is (with the hope that declaring it compulsory will itself lead to very high compliance).

    My country has gone the route of both workplace mandates for some workplaces and vaccine passports for everyone for public venues. This has been annoying me because of its inefficiencies, and because it's causing problems at a very local level: e.g. it makes businesses the enforcers, against staff and against customers; people who lose their job due to refusing the vaccine then put pressure on vaccinated relatives to support them financially; local sporting groups are having acrimonious changes of leadership when their leaders aren't vaccinated, etc. It feels like the government is wrongly shoving the responsibility of enforcing government rules onto the average person, instead I think if the government wants to make a rule it should enforce the rule. Hence I think national compulsory vaccination would be a much better option as it doesn't make locals the enforcers and checkers of the system.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #3
      With the limitations you've placed on the subject of discussion (no 'but my fweedoms!' whining), I'm not sure how much discussion will take place.

      However, my initial thought is the vaccine passports. You're free not to be vaccinated, but that choice comes with the fact that you therefore cannot access various indoor areas.

      If you decide to opt out of public health measures to help protect everyone , then good luck and I hope you don't get yourself or anyone else sick, but in doing so you're also opting out of accessing all of the options available to those who are trying to get rid of this disease the fastest.

      You can opt not to get a driver's license. But that means you can't drive. You can opt not to get a passport. But that means you can't visit another country that requires it. You can opt not to get vaccinated. But that means you can't go to pubs/restaurants etc. You still have the freedom of choice to make that decision, it's just a stupid one on many levels.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        My country has gone the route of both workplace mandates for some workplaces and vaccine passports for everyone for public venues. This has been annoying me because of its inefficiencies, and because it's causing problems at a very local level: e.g. it makes businesses the enforcers, against staff and against customers; people who lose their job due to refusing the vaccine then put pressure on vaccinated relatives to support them financially; local sporting groups are having acrimonious changes of leadership when their leaders aren't vaccinated, etc. It feels like the government is wrongly shoving the responsibility of enforcing government rules onto the average person, instead I think if the government wants to make a rule it should enforce the rule. Hence I think national compulsory vaccination would be a much better option as it doesn't make locals the enforcers and checkers of the system.
        True, and this is a hole in my original leanings. We had similar issues with mask mandates to get into shops etc in the UK. The vote leave conservative government currently in power is also highly reliant on the votes of the nutty headbangers on its back benches. This meant that the mask mandates weren't properly enforced and was left to shop owners to deal with.

        If some nutter came in refusing to wear a mask, some poor shop assistant had to try to either refuse them entry (and let's be honest, if you were the sort of person convinced by YouTube or your auntie Dorris's Facebook page to not wear a mask you were up for an argument), or roll their eyes and let the nutter in, making a mockery of the whole thing.

        Comment


        • #5
          Honestly, there's not a lot of daylight between the three options. They can all be boiled down to being forced to get the shot, or be punished. Its just a question of what the punishment is, and how/who administered it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            My own approach to this is to focus on efficiency and effectiveness. The amount of person-hours spent checking passports (and the worker-hours that have to be assigned by local businesses to do those checks) can be huge.

            While workplace mandates might have some effect, even if rolled out to all workplaces nationwide they won't necessarily get the vaccination rates high enough, and a substantial number of person-hours will be spent in acrimonious arguments between employers and recalcitrant employees.

            It seems like by far the most efficient and effective system by far is always going to be just making the vaccine compulsory nationally. I don't have a strong view on what the ideal enforcement system (if any) is... fines seem okay, but equally you could declare it compulsory and say you're "working on" what the punishment for non-compliance will be and happen to never get around to actually declaring what the punishment is (with the hope that declaring it compulsory will itself lead to very high compliance).

            My country has gone the route of both workplace mandates for some workplaces and vaccine passports for everyone for public venues. This has been annoying me because of its inefficiencies, and because it's causing problems at a very local level: e.g. it makes businesses the enforcers, against staff and against customers; people who lose their job due to refusing the vaccine then put pressure on vaccinated relatives to support them financially; local sporting groups are having acrimonious changes of leadership when their leaders aren't vaccinated, etc. It feels like the government is wrongly shoving the responsibility of enforcing government rules onto the average person, instead I think if the government wants to make a rule it should enforce the rule. Hence I think national compulsory vaccination would be a much better option as it doesn't make locals the enforcers and checkers of the system.
            Okay, so I can't express my own views because it was verboten.

            But I'll ask you a few questions based off your two posts so far.

            What is 'vaccination rates high enough'? What constitutes that 'high enough'? What number?

            How do you handle people whose doctors have told them not to get vaxxed? Or people that had clear serious reactions to the first jab and didn't go further?

            Furthermore, how do you measure the vaccination rate? Is it only those who are 'fully vaccinated'? What constitutes fully vaccinated? Is it one jab of J&J? Two jabs of Phizer/Moderna? Does getting the Sinovac count as getting vaxxed? Three jabs? Four, like Israel is now doing? Is it an actual target or ever-changing?

            Comment


            • #7
              I am definitely not an anti-vaxxer and I think everyone should get the vaccine (I have had three shots so far and might get a 4th in Feb). But I think all three options are equally bad. The more you try to force someone to do something they are fearful of for whatever reason, the harder they will fight it. Finding some way to make them want to take it (make it desirable) is the solution. I can't say how to do that, but it is the only way to get people who are paranoid or afraid of the vaccine to accept it. I also think any option should also take into account those who have recovered from the disease also, and count them as vaccinated for at least the same length of time as someone who has had the initial vaccines doses.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                Honestly, there's not a lot of daylight between the three options. They can all be boiled down to being forced to get the shot, or be punished. Its just a question of what the punishment is, and how/who administered it.
                You could say all laws boil down to "do / don't do X, and get punished / rewarded with Y by person / group Z". But clearly some laws are better than other laws, for many and various reasons.

                You can, of course, take the view that you don't have a strong opinion as to which of these three options is worst / best. However the three have quite different consequences for those people who refuse to get vaccinated, e.g. fined vs fired (if working, else no effect) vs not allowed in restaurants or public venues. So I would think that even people who didn't believe in the goal of these laws would have views on which one is least bad for them.

                The strangest consequence I am seeing in my own country at the moment for the unvaccinated is that they can't get their hair cut, because barbers / hairdressers are required to check vaccine passes. Another consequence is that, of the relatively few professions for which vaccinated is being required as a condition of continued employment, the largest non-compliant group is early-childhood-educators (ECE or Pre-K), which seems to be causing a high rate of staff loss in that field... although I would note that early childhood education is mostly government funded here so those staff were making a living by taking government money previously.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  I am definitely not an anti-vaxxer and I think everyone should get the vaccine (I have had three shots so far and might get a 4th in Feb). But I think all three options are equally bad. The more you try to force someone to do something they are fearful of for whatever reason, the harder they will fight it. Finding some way to make them want to take it (make it desirable) is the solution. I can't say how to do that, but it is the only way to get people who are paranoid or afraid of the vaccine to accept it. I also think any option should also take into account those who have recovered from the disease also, and count them as vaccinated for at least the same length of time as someone who has had the initial vaccines doses.
                  I think the messaging on this has been some of the worst ever.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    The more you try to force someone to do something they are fearful of for whatever reason, the harder they will fight it.
                    Perhaps, but with other legal requirements we don't bend over backwards to coddle people's feelings. The IRS doesn't care if you have a phobia of taxes, you're still required to pay them.

                    Finding some way to make them want to take it (make it desirable) is the solution.
                    Governments have tried giving out lottery tickets, supermarket vouchers, money, sausage sizzles, etc as incentives. If you can find an incentive that works for everyone, please tell us.

                    I also think any option should also take into account those who have recovered from the disease also, and count them as vaccinated for at least the same length of time as someone who has had the initial vaccines doses.
                    That's fine with me. In practice though, governments may find it hard to prove who has and hasn't had the virus in the past.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                      What is 'vaccination rates high enough'? What constitutes that 'high enough'? What number?
                      That's a good question. It seems back when vaccinations started, 75% was deemed the level to reach. Right now, my state is 69% of the population and 80% over 18 completed vaccinated. Of course, this will drop when it takes a booster to be counted as fully vaccinated. Now I'm hearing, it's a 90% fully vaccinated rate is the goal.

                      Also, since COVID is never going to be eradicated (or probably way after my lifetime), are these restrictions for eternity + 20 years?
                      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        Perhaps, but with other legal requirements we don't bend over backwards to coddle people's feelings. The IRS doesn't care if you have a phobia of taxes, you're still required to pay them.

                        Governments have tried giving out lottery tickets, supermarket vouchers, money, sausage sizzles, etc as incentives. If you can find an incentive that works for everyone, please tell us.
                        it's probably too late now but if they had made the vaccine hard to get at the beginning and made it look like only the rich and powerful could get it, I bet the conspiracy nuts would have demanded the vaccine for themselves!

                        That's fine with me. In practice though, governments may find it hard to prove who has and hasn't had the virus in the past.
                        At this point I think the harder the government tries to force the hold outs to get the vaccine, the more they will resist. They still won't get it. So I think they should just drop the mandates and the checking of passports. Maybe if they stop trying to force people, more would get it. Worst case these people will eventually get COVID and end up immune, or they will die and darwinism will reduce the pool of conspiracy nuts. If the vaccine works, then those who take it should be pretty safe from serious side effects if they still catch the virus. The virus will either go away, get less severe, or infect everyone who doesn't get the shot.


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                          What is 'vaccination rates high enough'? What constitutes that 'high enough'? What number?
                          Any government will choose a number based on advice of experts. The government in my country has been saying 90% double-vaxxed is the primary goal. They have been abundantly clear about this in their messaging for months now.

                          I did not personally hear the press conference this week about their intended approach to omicron and boosters though, and it's conceivable they will want to make a change in response to omicron.

                          Personally from the modelling I have seen I think 95% double-vaxxed should have been the primary goal.

                          How do you handle people whose doctors have told them not to get vaxxed? Or people that had clear serious reactions to the first jab and didn't go further?
                          The system in my country is that the government's medical team has specified a list of conditions for which vaccination exemptions are allowed - they are very rare conditions and last I heard were expected to apply to only a hundred or so people nationwide. I believe the process is that if any local doctor has a patient they believe qualifies for an exemption they submit their case file for review at a national level and then it is approved for exemption (or rejected). The local doctors do not themselves have authority to directly issue exemptions (to avoid a situation where one doctor is giving out exemptions like candy).

                          Furthermore, how do you measure the vaccination rate? Is it only those who are 'fully vaccinated'? What constitutes fully vaccinated? Is it one jab of J&J? Two jabs of Phizer/Moderna? Does getting the Sinovac count as getting vaxxed? Three jabs? Four, like Israel is now doing? Is it an actual target or ever-changing?
                          My country has been only using Pfizer until very recently when AstraZeneca has also been available as an option. The current requirement is two jabs of any combination of those two. I have occasionally heard of people who were vaccinated overseas before coming here having issues getting recognition here of their overseas vaccination status.
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            I am definitely not an anti-vaxxer and I think everyone should get the vaccine (I have had three shots so far and might get a 4th in Feb). But I think all three options are equally bad. The more you try to force someone to do something they are fearful of for whatever reason, the harder they will fight it. Finding some way to make them want to take it (make it desirable) is the solution. I can't say how to do that, but it is the only way to get people who are paranoid or afraid of the vaccine to accept it. I also think any option should also take into account those who have recovered from the disease also, and count them as vaccinated for at least the same length of time as someone who has had the initial vaccines doses.
                            Yabbut the mandates have worked. Every story about how this group or that one was going to give up their jobs fizzled. Didn’t happen.

                            Obviously we want the least coercive solution. “Here’s the data and here’s what’s needed, so let’s go do this.” It was better than sweet that I didn’t have to bother with doctors or insurance either. The first shot I just needed to show I was over 60. It was a FEMA site on one of our largest campuses. The second I just had to show I’d had the first shot. Same place. The third shot was here in “we got a stoplight,” GA, at a Walgreens. (Okay so “we got a stoplight” doesn’t have a Walgreens and I had to head to the “big” town 15 miles down the road.)

                            But let’s face it. The paranoia was manufactured. The level of misinformation, disinformation, and outright lies being pushed out by the right fringe Murdoch ecosystems was always going to lead to enough resistance to require mandates. Education is a tough enough job when people aren’t deliberately cutting your legs out from under you. So we force them to get their shots, they get their shots, and go back to complaining, this time because their third eye is overdue.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              Any government will choose a number based on advice of experts. The government in my country has been saying 90% double-vaxxed is the primary goal. They have been abundantly clear about this in their messaging for months now.
                              Sometime last year we had a conversation about herd immunity, and you raised the objection that breakthrough infections could make it mathematically unachievable. My response at the time is that breakthrough cases hadn’t been happening, or we’d have known it by then.

                              New data, new opinions.

                              With the introduction of Omicron, breakthrough cases are now common. My envelope says herd immunity is no longer unachievable. Whatever vaccination rates that may be set now are solely to decrease severe illnesses and the consequent increases in mortality.

                              Comment

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