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Parents of Michigan School Shooter Charged With Involuntary Manslaughter

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    I read about this and was horrified to learn from an article that a study by the Giffords Law Center [sic] found that 21 states had no child-access prevention laws for guns.

    Why? What kind of society considers it acceptable to have firearms potentially accessible to children?
    I taught my kids gun safety and gun use from a young age. Not doing so is just asking for the sort of gun accidents we see involving Children. I had my first .22 at like age 7.

    My teens know how to access my gun safes and know precisely when they are allowed to (i.e. when we are headed to the range, or in the case that they are at home alone and need them for self defense). If any of my teens showed irresponsibility or unsafe conduct, or especially behaviors like this kid, things would be quite different.

    It's all a matter of responsibility and paying attention to your kids. Sadly the school system and the parents here failed him when he clearly had serious mental issues.



    Last edited by Gondwanaland; 12-04-2021, 01:32 PM.
    "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
    - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

      I taught my kids gun safety and gun use from a young age. Not doing so is just asking for the sort of gun accidents we see involving Children. I had my first .22 at like age 7.

      My teens know how to access my gun safes and know precisely when they are allowed to (i.e. when we are headed to the range, or in the case that they are at home alone and need them for self defense). If any of my teens showed irresponsibility or unsafe conduct, or especially behaviors like this kid, things would be quite different.

      It's all a matter of responsibility and paying attention to your kids. Sadly the school system and the parents here failed him when he clearly had serious mental issues.


      same here. In fact growing up in the country we just had shotguns hanging up on wall racks, not even locked up. We were taught from an early age to respect guns and never play with them.

      I don't see any conservatives defending these parents' actions in regards to giving their disturbed 15 year old a handgun and being lax about not only his mental state but dismissive of the warning signs the school pointed out to them.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post

        same here. In fact growing up in the country we just had shotguns hanging up on wall racks, not even locked up. We were taught from an early age to respect guns and never play with them.

        I don't see any conservatives defending these parents' actions in regards to giving their disturbed 15 year old a handgun and being lax about not only his mental state but dismissive of the warning signs the school pointed out to them.
        Yep. If anything it looks like the parents encouraged his mental state and the school didn't do a heck of a lot either, frankly.
        "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
        - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
          I taught my kids gun safety and gun use from a young age. Not doing so is just asking for the sort of gun accidents we see involving Children. I had my first .22 at like age 7.

          My teens know how to access my gun safes and know precisely when they are allowed to (i.e. when we are headed to the range, or in the case that they are at home alone and need them for self defense). If any of my teens showed irresponsibility or unsafe conduct, or especially behaviors like this kid, things would be quite different.

          It's all a matter of responsibility and paying attention to your kids. Sadly the school system and the parents here failed him when he clearly had serious mental issues.
          Fired a .22 rifle (more of it was in my hands, up against my shoulder with my dad literally moving my finger on the trigger) when I was 6 or 7.

          When I was around 12 I was given my first firearm. The .270 Weatherby Magnum that I had used to kill a 10-12 pointer with, and quite literally put "meat on the table" when my father, his friend, my brother and I got snowed in at a provisionless cabin in Pennsylvania. I don't think that I was allowed to touch it again until I was nearly 14.

          My father drilled certain aspects of firearm safety like "never point the business end at anything unless you intend to shoot it" and "it is ALWAYS loaded"

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #20
            I was watching some coverage on CNN.

            The parents are in a deep enough hole even before they apparently tried to flee. Although Canada won't have done them much good as they would have just been sent back. They need to learn the first lesson of when you're in a hole: stop digging.

            CNN did seem to try a little to clear the schools of any blame. I think there is culpability there as well.

            At least in the portions I watched, no mention of gun control.
            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              I read about this and was horrified to learn from an article that a study by the Giffords Law Center [sic] found that 21 states had no child-access prevention laws for guns.

              Why? What kind of society considers it acceptable to have firearms potentially accessible to children?
              Anyone who expects the law to enforce morality and ethics is going to be disappointed.
              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                same here. In fact growing up in the country we just had shotguns hanging up on wall racks, not even locked up. We were taught from an early age to respect guns and never play with them.

                I don't see any conservatives defending these parents' actions in regards to giving their disturbed 15 year old a handgun and being lax about not only his mental state but dismissive of the warning signs the school pointed out to them.
                Just about every high school kid in Texas drove to school in a pickup with a gun rack in the back window, with a shotgun. There were no mass shootings.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                  Anyone who expects the law to enforce morality and ethics is going to be disappointed.
                  EGGzackly - it's the heart that needs changing, and no law can do that. Not about race, not about guns, not about smash-n-grabs...
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Turley:

                    The state must prove that the Crumbleys caused the death of the deceased victim, that the deceased individual died as a result of their actions by (1) intending to kill the victim, (2) intending to do great bodily harm to the victim, or (3) creating a situation where the risk of great bodily harm or death was very high, knowing that as a result of the defendant’s actions he or she knew that serious harm or death would likely result. The prosecutors must also show that the defendant caused the death of the victim without justification or lawful excuse.

                    It is obviously the third option that is the likely basis for these charges.

                    However, the charge seems a workaround of the fact that Michigan opted not to enact a child access prevention law. The purchase of the gun could be explained as a promise that he would eventually receive the gun when he was 18 but that, until then, it would remain under their control. Children are allowed to use guns in the state under parental supervision.

                    The key question is whether this level of negligence is sufficient to create a situation where the risk of great bodily harm or death was very high, knowing that as a result of the defendant’s actions he or she knew that serious harm or death would likely result. The fact that they left the gun in an unlocked drawer would not be sufficient. Unfortunately, that is all too common and is not a crime in a state without a child access prevention law. This demands more than simply negligence but a recklessness that led to conditions likely to cause such fatalities.

                    ...

                    The viability of these charges will depend on the police having additional information showing knowledge by the parents of the son’s violent inclinations or potential. It is not clear how much information that they were able to get from the parents or their son before these charges. We have seen in cases like Rittenhouse, a rush to bring charges before all of the facts were known by prosecutors. It is not clear whether the prosecutors had a more complete picture in this case.
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Let's go, Brandon

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                      Anyone who expects the law to enforce morality and ethics is going to be disappointed.
                      I am not entirely sure I understand your point. Certainly laws can be broken as we daily read in the papers. However, that laws are broken does not strike me as a sound reason for not having them in place.

                      Michigan and other states have no such laws with regard to ensuring firearms are kept away from children; and I do not understand why.

                      In Michigan I note that tampering with propane tanks is [rightly] illegal and work on propane systems may only be undertaken by qualified personnel from the industry yet this same state has no legislation regarding the secure storage of firearms.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                        Turley:

                        The state must prove that the Crumbleys caused the death of the deceased victim, that the deceased individual died as a result of their actions by (1) intending to kill the victim, (2) intending to do great bodily harm to the victim, or (3) creating a situation where the risk of great bodily harm or death was very high, knowing that as a result of the defendant’s actions he or she knew that serious harm or death would likely result. The prosecutors must also show that the defendant caused the death of the victim without justification or lawful excuse.

                        It is obviously the third option that is the likely basis for these charges.

                        However, the charge seems a workaround of the fact that Michigan opted not to enact a child access prevention law. The purchase of the gun could be explained as a promise that he would eventually receive the gun when he was 18 but that, until then, it would remain under their control. Children are allowed to use guns in the state under parental supervision.

                        The key question is whether this level of negligence is sufficient to create a situation where the risk of great bodily harm or death was very high, knowing that as a result of the defendant’s actions he or she knew that serious harm or death would likely result. The fact that they left the gun in an unlocked drawer would not be sufficient. Unfortunately, that is all too common and is not a crime in a state without a child access prevention law. This demands more than simply negligence but a recklessness that led to conditions likely to cause such fatalities.

                        ...

                        The viability of these charges will depend on the police having additional information showing knowledge by the parents of the son’s violent inclinations or potential. It is not clear how much information that they were able to get from the parents or their son before these charges. We have seen in cases like Rittenhouse, a rush to bring charges before all of the facts were known by prosecutors. It is not clear whether the prosecutors had a more complete picture in this case.
                        Given that it was kept in a drawer in the parent's room they have a case for the parent's keeping it until he is of legal age. Still it isn't uncommon for parents to be charged when a child gets an unsecured and especially loaded gun and accidentally shoots someone.

                        I think a significant factor will end up being whether or not they also stored ammo with it or did the kid have to get some from another source (hence looking it up on the internet).

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          I am not entirely sure I understand your point. Certainly laws can be broken as we daily read in the papers. However, that laws are broken does not strike me as a sound reason for not having them in place.

                          Michigan and other states have no such laws with regard to ensuring firearms are kept away from children; and I do not understand why.

                          In Michigan I note that tampering with propane tanks is [rightly] illegal and work on propane systems may only be undertaken by qualified personnel from the industry yet this same state has no legislation regarding the secure storage of firearms.
                          Last time I checked propane tanks aren't covered by a constitutional amendment. That likely is the answer.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Last time I checked propane tanks aren't covered by a constitutional amendment. That likely is the answer.
                            That is irrelevant. The issue is state legislation concerning firearms.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              I am not entirely sure I understand your point. Certainly laws can be broken as we daily read in the papers. However, that laws are broken does not strike me as a sound reason for not having them in place.

                              Michigan and other states have no such laws with regard to ensuring firearms are kept away from children; and I do not understand why.

                              In Michigan I note that tampering with propane tanks is [rightly] illegal and work on propane systems may only be undertaken by qualified personnel from the industry yet this same state has no legislation regarding the secure storage of firearms.
                              The left loves to talk about more laws regarding guns, but does a very poor job of enforcing the laws that do exist. Or even the principles, as we see in this case.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hypatia is incensed that we allow children to access guns, but is perfectly fine with adults being sexual and naked around them.

                                Comment

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