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  • #16
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    [sarcasm intended That must explain why so many are dying around the world].



    Do you even know what natural immunity is?
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      Should people who are fired for refusing to wash their hands receive unemployment benefit?
      I'm sure there's a twist and a turn here, but IF "washing hands" was a requirement of the company, clearly stated (such as food service persons) then a person refusing to comply would be fired "for cause", and would have no reasonable expectation of unemployment compensation.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        Should people who are fired for refusing to wash their hands receive unemployment benefit?
        If they are in a field that it would be expected as a condition of employment (health and food come to mind), no. But if all of a sudden a factory worker, a mechanic, a park ranger... were told they must do so, absolutely.

        Btw, is anyone being told to prove they wash their hands or be fired?

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

          Your source does not seem to support your claim nor the one it makes in its title.
          I'm shocked. STUNNED, actually.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Tell me you don't know what natural immunity is without telling me you don't know what natural immunity is:
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            [sarcasm intended That must explain why so many are dying around the world].



            "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
            - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              If they are in a field that it would be expected as a condition of employment (health and food come to mind), no. But if all of a sudden a factory worker, a mechanic, a park ranger... were told they must do so, absolutely.

              Btw, is anyone being told to prove they wash their hands or be fired?
              Beware, there's some twisted logic afoot here.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                Do you even know what natural immunity is?
                Yes.

                I also understand that some people believe that because they have had a mild version of COVID-19 they are now immune for the foreseeable future to every variant of that virus.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  If they are in a field that it would be expected as a condition of employment (health and food come to mind), no. But if all of a sudden a factory worker, a mechanic, a park ranger... were told they must do so, absolutely.

                  Btw, is anyone being told to prove they wash their hands or be fired?
                  Concerning hand-washing, that process also helps prevent cross infection. Even a mechanic or a park ranger should be expected to wash their hands prior to using any sort of refectory or food preparation area in their place of work, and of course after urinating or defecating.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    Concerning hand-washing, that process also helps prevent cross infection. Even a mechanic or a park ranger should be expected to wash their hands prior to using any sort of refectory or food preparation area in their place of work, and of course after urinating or defecating.
                    Washing your hands before eating is just common sense unless maybe if you were wearing gloves all day. You don't need a government threatening to have people fired for that.

                    We're discussing mandatory vaccines which really can't be compared with handwashing on any level.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      Yes.

                      I also understand that some people believe that because they have had a mild version of COVID-19 they are now immune for the foreseeable future to every variant of that virus.
                      Well, it seems to be the case for most of the variants, so what's the problem? Every study I've seen says that recovering from even a mild case provides robust and long lasting immune response. Here's a few.

                      Good news: Mild COVID-19 induces lasting antibody protection – Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis (wustl.edu)
                      SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans | Nature
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                        Yes.

                        I also understand that some people believe that because they have had a mild version of COVID-19 they are now immune for the foreseeable future to every variant of that virus.
                        A "mild version"? I think you meant a "mild reaction" because the first/early version was singular.

                        As far as variants, I would think natural immunity should be as effective (if not more so) than the first vaccinations.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          Concerning hand-washing, that process also helps prevent cross infection. Even a mechanic or a park ranger should be expected to wash their hands prior to using any sort of refectory or food preparation area in their place of work, and of course after urinating or defecating.
                          Lemme guess -- you used to be the "show me your hands" guard at the restrooms.

                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                            A "mild version"? I think you meant a "mild reaction" because the first/early version was singular.

                            As far as variants, I would think natural immunity should be as effective (if not more so) than the first vaccinations.
                            Well yes I did mean a mild reaction. However, the literature that is available does not indicate that once having contracted a mild reaction to the disease that the individual will be immune to subsequent mutations.

                            Published on November 23rd

                            https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heal...u-need-to-know

                            What is natural immunity?


                            Natural immunity is the antibody protection your body creates against a germ once you’ve been infected with it. Natural immunity varies according to the person and the germ. For example, people who have had the measles are not likely to get it again, but this is not the case for every disease. A mild case of an illness may not result in strong natural immunity. New studies show that natural immunity to the coronavirus weakens (wanes) over time, and does so faster than immunity provided by COVID-19 vaccination.
                            What is vaccine-induced immunity for COVID-19?


                            Vaccine-induced immunity is what we get by being fully vaccinated with an approved or authorized COVID-19 vaccine. Research indicates that the protection from the vaccines may wane over time so additional doses (boosters) are now authorized for certain populations. These boosters can extend the powerful protection offered by the COVID-19 vaccines.
                            If I have natural immunity do I still need a COVID vaccine?


                            Yes, the COVID-19 vaccines are recommended, even if you had COVID-19. At present, evidence from Johns Hopkins Medicine and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) supports getting a COVID-19 vaccine as the best protection against getting COVID-19, whether you have already had the virus or not.

                            Here are recent research studies that support getting vaccinated even if you have already had COVID-19:

                            Vaccines add protection.
                            • The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) released a report on Oct. 29, 2021, that says getting vaccinated for the coronavirus when you’ve already had COVID-19 significantly enhances your immune protection and further reduces your risk of reinfection.
                            • A study published in August 2021 indicates that if you had COVID-19 before and are not vaccinated, your risk of getting re-infected is more than two times higher than for those who got vaccinated after having COVID-19.
                            • Another study published on Nov. 5, 2021, by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) looked at adults hospitalized for COVID-like sickness between January and September 2021. This study found that the chances of these adults testing positive for COVID-19 were 5.49 times higher in unvaccinated people who had COVID-19 in the past than they were for those who had been vaccinated for COVID and had not had an infection before.
                            • A study from the CDC in September 2021 showed that roughly one-third of those with COVID-19 cases in the study had no apparent natural immunity.

                            Immunity varies for individuals: Immune response can differ in people who get COVID-19 and recover from the illness. The FDA-authorized and approved vaccines have been given to almost 200 million people in the U.S. alone, and have strong data supporting their effectiveness.

                            Delta variant and future coronavirus variants: Hospitalizations of people with severe COVID-19 soared over the late summer and into fall as the delta variant moved across the country. People infected with earlier versions of the coronavirus and who haven’t been vaccinated might be more vulnerable to new mutations of the coronavirus such as those found in the delta variant. To date, the authorized vaccines provide protection from serious disease or death due to all currently circulating coronavirus variants.
                            Should I hold off getting a COVID vaccine to see if there is new research on natural immunity?


                            Holding off on getting vaccinated for COVID-19 is not a good idea. Here’s why:
                            1. Getting COVID-19 is very risky and can result in long-term disease, lasting organ damage, hospitalization or even death.
                            2. Even if your own infection is mild, you can spread it to others who may have severe illness and death.
                            3. The authorized and approved vaccines are safe and highly effective against severe illness or death due to COVID.
                            4. Risks of COVID-19 vaccine side effects are extremely low.

                            For the reasons above, the CDC recommends and Johns Hopkins Medicine agrees that all eligible people get vaccinated with any of the three FDA-approved or authorized COVID-19 vaccines, including those who have already had COVID-19.
                            Johns Hopkins Research on Natural Immunity for COVID-19 and COVID Vaccines


                            Johns Hopkins has conducted a large study on natural immunity that shows antibody levels against COVID-19 coronavirus stay higher for a longer time in people who were infected by the virus and then were fully vaccinated with mRNA COVID-19 vaccines compared with those who only got immunized. (The results of the study were published in a letter to the Journal of the American Medical Association on Nov. 1, 2021.)

                            The data show that one month after they got their second shot, participants who had had COVID-19 more than 90 days before their first shot had adjusted antibody levels higher than those who had been exposed to the coronavirus more recently than 90 days. Three months after the second coronavirus vaccine, the antibody levels were even higher: 13% higher than those who were exposed to the virus less than or equal to the 90-day mark.

                            These study results suggest that natural immunity may increase the protection of the shots when there is a longer time period between having COVID-19 and getting vaccinated.


                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                              Well, it seems to be the case for most of the variants, so what's the problem? Every study I've seen says that recovering from even a mild case provides robust and long lasting immune response. Here's a few.

                              Good news: Mild COVID-19 induces lasting antibody protection – Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis (wustl.edu)
                              SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans | Nature
                              It is far too early to make such long-term claims.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                This is, perhaps, the key comment in that link.

                                "Typically, when employees are fired or they quit because of a business’s policies they aren’t eligible for unemployment benefits, unless they have an exemption for established religious or moral objections, or medical reasons.

                                “Benefits are for people who are unemployed through no fault of their own,” Paxton said. But the interpretation of fault can vary
                                ."

                                Clearly refusing to have a vaccination is, for most people, neither an established religious nor a moral objection. Nor, from what I can deduce, is there any valid medical reason for refusing these vaccinations.

                                As noted in that quote benefits are paid to individuals who become unemployed through no fault of their own. Refusing a vaccination is a personal choice, therefore, being made redundant is a result of that personal choice.

                                However, as the quote also notes the interpretation of what constitutes personal fault can vary.

                                A further comment is also valid "If the person would not get unemployment benefits if they refused to wash their hands at work and were fired over that, they should be treated the same way.”

                                Should people who refuse to wash their hands receive unemployment benefit?
                                It just sounds like you want to force your morals onto others.

                                Comment

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