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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Sources please.
    John G Gager, The Origins of Anti-Semitism: Attitudes Towards Judaism in Pagan and Christian Antiquity, OUP, 1985, Part II Judaism and Judaizing Among Gentiles: Attractions and Reactions”


    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    That opening paragraph is an eye-opener, wouldn't you say?

    It has been argued that European antisemitism has its roots in Roman policy



    Prepare for high winds as H_A begins her frantic and furious hand waving routine
    Hardly. You do have an unfortunate tendency to make assumptions and assume that one sentence on a Wiki entry entirely vindicates your contentions.

    Firstly, that comment is not from Goodman. It is the Wiki article writer’s interpretation of Goodman.

    Secondly, here are some comments by Goodman in his Epilogue “The Origins of Anti-Semitism” from that same work. Rome and Jerusalem: The Clash of Ancient Civilisations, Vintage Books, Random House, New York, 2007.


    Much has been written on the origins of antisemitism in classical antiquity. Hatred of the Jews has been traced by some to Egypt in the third century BCE, by others to the propaganda against the Jews produced by Antiochus Epiphanes in the second century BCE. Some have emphasized the resentment aroused in neighbouring Greek cities by the expansionist policies of the Hasmonaeans in Judaea, others the separateness of Jewish communities in the diaspora which made Jews distinctive and therefore vulnerable as scapegoats. [...]
    The Romans were well aware that Jews were different in many aspects of their lifestyle and outlook, but they were used to ruling over strange peoples and revelled in the variety of their subjects. The presence of a Jewish community in Rome gave them opportunities to discover rather more about this nation than others, although they did not always understand what they saw. They thought that Jewish taboos against worshipping other gods than their own or engraving human images on coins were bizarre, but that they could easily be accommodated. [....] Jews were exotic in the eyes of Romans and the Roman state, and they were sometimes treated as despicable because they were a defeated nation, but they were not seen as dangerous or hostile.

    Such tolerance came under stress when revolt broke out in Jerusalem in 66 CE.... The initial Roman response was little more than a police action, a show of force, but it escalated in response to the disaster suffered by Cestius Gallus in his incompetent withdrawal after he had almost conquered the city. His loss of the equivalent of a complete legion at the hands of the inhabitants of an established province of the empire was without precedent and could not be kept quiet. Punitive action was required before other subjects of Rome tried to follow suit.
    [...]

    But in the long term the most significant development in the century after 70 was a by-product of the hostility of Rome to the Jews, the emergence of Christian antisemitism. Roman imperial power gradually disintegrated in the western Mediterranean and northern Europe from the beginning of the fifth century CE, and although the empire of New Rome, in Byzantium, continued far longer, it too fell in 1453 to the Ottoman Turks. But Rome's living legacy in Europe throughout the Middle Ages to our own times has been the institution and ideology of the Church, and in the eyes of some Christians, ever since the first generation, Judaism has been a religion that ought to have ceased to exist in the first century CE ...it was not by accident that some Christians began in the second century to distance themselves from Jews with language of increasing vitriol at the same time that similar terminology was being used in the centre of imperial power at Rome.

    The impetus for Christians to distance themselves from Jews after 70 was much more clear-cut. By that date many, probably most, Christians lived outside Judaea, and most of them had not been born Jews.... But, more crucially in the development of antisemitism, to gain credibility in the Roman world after 70 Christians needed not only to deny their own Jewishness but to attack Judaism altogether....if Christians were to defend their own good name and seek converts in a Roman world in which, after 70, the name of the Jews excited opprobrium, it was easier to join in the attack and agree with the pagans that the defeat of the Jews and the destruction of the Temple were to be celebrated as the will of God. [...] some Christians, like Augustine, made the even stronger claim that the miserable state of the Jews was testimony to the truth preached by the Church, and that it was necessary to preserve Jews in subjection, rather than convert them to Christianity, in order that observation of their parlous condition might strengthen the faithful...Of course the antagonism to Judaism found in many Christian writings of the second century was given a theological gloss. The Jews were those who had rejected Christ and suffered accordingly; in a more extreme form, the Jews were those who had killed him. The accusation is too familiar to appreciate readily how bizarre it is.[...] In any case, as during the second and third centuries Christian theological discourse took on a life of its own, attitudes towards the Jews hardened. By the time of Constantine, Christians took for granted that Jews were to be despised and shunned. The assumption was inherited by medieval Christendom from the Christian Roman empire, and has by no means wholly faded away in the modern world.

    My emphasis.

    All of which lends support to the argument that I have been making concerning anti-Semitism as we understand it today and Christianity.


    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
      John G Gager, The Origins of Anti-Semitism: Attitudes Towards Judaism in Pagan and Christian Antiquity, OUP, 1985, Part II Judaism and Judaizing Among Gentiles: Attractions and Reactions”




      Hardly. You do have an unfortunate tendency to make assumptions and assume that one sentence on a Wiki entry entirely vindicates your contentions.

      Firstly, that comment is not from Goodman. It is the Wiki article writer’s interpretation of Goodman.

      Secondly, here are some comments by Goodman in his Epilogue “The Origins of Anti-Semitism” from that same work. Rome and Jerusalem: The Clash of Ancient Civilisations, Vintage Books, Random House, New York, 2007.


      Much has been written on the origins of antisemitism in classical antiquity. Hatred of the Jews has been traced by some to Egypt in the third century BCE, by others to the propaganda against the Jews produced by Antiochus Epiphanes in the second century BCE. Some have emphasized the resentment aroused in neighbouring Greek cities by the expansionist policies of the Hasmonaeans in Judaea, others the separateness of Jewish communities in the diaspora which made Jews distinctive and therefore vulnerable as scapegoats. [...]
      The Romans were well aware that Jews were different in many aspects of their lifestyle and outlook, but they were used to ruling over strange peoples and revelled in the variety of their subjects. The presence of a Jewish community in Rome gave them opportunities to discover rather more about this nation than others, although they did not always understand what they saw. They thought that Jewish taboos against worshipping other gods than their own or engraving human images on coins were bizarre, but that they could easily be accommodated. [....] Jews were exotic in the eyes of Romans and the Roman state, and they were sometimes treated as despicable because they were a defeated nation, but they were not seen as dangerous or hostile.

      Such tolerance came under stress when revolt broke out in Jerusalem in 66 CE.... The initial Roman response was little more than a police action, a show of force, but it escalated in response to the disaster suffered by Cestius Gallus in his incompetent withdrawal after he had almost conquered the city. His loss of the equivalent of a complete legion at the hands of the inhabitants of an established province of the empire was without precedent and could not be kept quiet. Punitive action was required before other subjects of Rome tried to follow suit.
      [...]

      But in the long term the most significant development in the century after 70 was a by-product of the hostility of Rome to the Jews, the emergence of Christian antisemitism. Roman imperial power gradually disintegrated in the western Mediterranean and northern Europe from the beginning of the fifth century CE, and although the empire of New Rome, in Byzantium, continued far longer, it too fell in 1453 to the Ottoman Turks. But Rome's living legacy in Europe throughout the Middle Ages to our own times has been the institution and ideology of the Church, and in the eyes of some Christians, ever since the first generation, Judaism has been a religion that ought to have ceased to exist in the first century CE ...it was not by accident that some Christians began in the second century to distance themselves from Jews with language of increasing vitriol at the same time that similar terminology was being used in the centre of imperial power at Rome.

      The impetus for Christians to distance themselves from Jews after 70 was much more clear-cut. By that date many, probably most, Christians lived outside Judaea, and most of them had not been born Jews.... But, more crucially in the development of antisemitism, to gain credibility in the Roman world after 70 Christians needed not only to deny their own Jewishness but to attack Judaism altogether....if Christians were to defend their own good name and seek converts in a Roman world in which, after 70, the name of the Jews excited opprobrium, it was easier to join in the attack and agree with the pagans that the defeat of the Jews and the destruction of the Temple were to be celebrated as the will of God. [...] some Christians, like Augustine, made the even stronger claim that the miserable state of the Jews was testimony to the truth preached by the Church, and that it was necessary to preserve Jews in subjection, rather than convert them to Christianity, in order that observation of their parlous condition might strengthen the faithful...Of course the antagonism to Judaism found in many Christian writings of the second century was given a theological gloss. The Jews were those who had rejected Christ and suffered accordingly; in a more extreme form, the Jews were those who had killed him. The accusation is too familiar to appreciate readily how bizarre it is.[...] In any case, as during the second and third centuries Christian theological discourse took on a life of its own, attitudes towards the Jews hardened. By the time of Constantine, Christians took for granted that Jews were to be despised and shunned. The assumption was inherited by medieval Christendom from the Christian Roman empire, and has by no means wholly faded away in the modern world.

      My emphasis.

      All of which lends support to the argument that I have been making concerning anti-Semitism as we understand it today and Christianity.

      So, Christians adopted the antisemitism that existed before it, making it christian anti-semitism and new/distinct from what it inherited it from. However, Nazi anti-semitism is christian anti-semitism because it came from christian sources.

      Is that your claim?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

        So, Christians adopted the antisemitism that existed before it, making it christian anti-semitism and new/distinct from what it inherited it from. However, Nazi anti-semitism is christian anti-semitism because it came from christian sources.

        Is that your claim?
        Dang. You beat me to it.

        She is saying that the anti-Semitism that Christians adopted from before their time automatically switched into a uniquely Christian endeavor. But OTOH the "Christian anti-Semitism" that the Nazis adopted remains Christian anti-Semitism even though it has features and basis's (economic for instance) that have nothing to with Christianity.

        It's the same inconsistency problem that keeps plaguing her and on which so many of her premises run afoul.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

          So, Christians adopted the antisemitism that existed before it, making it christian anti-semitism and new/distinct from what it inherited it from. However, Nazi anti-semitism is christian anti-semitism because it came from christian sources.

          Is that your claim?
          The Graeco-Roman world did not institutionalise enmity towards the Jews. The Christian world did.

          That there was anti-Judaic feelings and, on occasion violence, in the Graeco-Roman is not disputed but it was not something promulgated by the state.

          The animosity in Rome towards the Jews stemmed from those Jewish rebels who had revolted not the entire Jewish people; although understandably Jews were regarded with suspicion and hostility [possibly in the same manner in which American Japanese were regarded following the events of 80 years ago today].

          Early Christians wished to distance themselves and their [Jewish] founder/deity from those rebellious Jews and so extended that hostility towards to all Jews while adding an additional theological gloss. Hence we get Justin Martyr gloating over the destruction of Jerusalem under Hadrian because the Jews had rejected the Christ.

          Once Christianity had the ascendancy from the early fourth century that antagonism and hostility was developed further still becoming institutionalised.


          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Dang. You beat me to it.

            She is saying that the anti-Semitism that Christians adopted from before their time automatically switched into a uniquely Christian endeavor. But OTOH the "Christian anti-Semitism" that the Nazis adopted remains Christian anti-Semitism even though it has features and basis's (economic for instance) that have nothing to with Christianity.

            It's the same inconsistency problem that keeps plaguing her and on which so many of her premises run afoul.
            You have not addressed the ADL's anti-Semitic tropes.

            Perhaps the ADL is wrong as well.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

              Anti-semitism existed and was acted on before Christianity existed. Why is this so hard to grasp?
              That is not what I asked.

              Let me repeat my question.

              So, according to you anti-Semitism as we now understand that term, was to be found within societies throughout the Graeco-Roman world?


              Have I understood you correctly?
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Are you trying to make Gondwanaland jealous?
                I am trying to make him objective ha ha.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  That is not what I asked.

                  Let me repeat my question.

                  So, according to you anti-Semitism as we now understand that term, was to be found within societies throughout the Graeco-Roman world?


                  Have I understood you correctly?
                  Leaving out the 'according to you' (because it's not according to me it's according to actual historians, of which you are not). then Correct, anti-semitism existed and was acted on before Christianity existed, including in the Graeco-Roman world.

                  Like? This isn't even controversial. It's not some sort of new information. Any historian worth their salt knows this.

                  But then I guess that's the problem. I'm talking to a person who claims to be a historian but is not. A person who thought that: 1. being born in the US makes it impossible for one to be Hellenistic, and 2. that using the term "Hellenistic Scholar" somehow means you are claiming the scholar is Hellenistic rather than the common use of the term to mean they are an expert in Hellenistic scholarship.
                  Last edited by Gondwanaland; 12-07-2021, 01:10 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Dang. You beat me to it.

                    She is saying that the anti-Semitism that Christians adopted from before their time automatically switched into a uniquely Christian endeavor. But OTOH the "Christian anti-Semitism" that the Nazis adopted remains Christian anti-Semitism even though it has features and basis's (economic for instance) that have nothing to with Christianity.

                    It's the same inconsistency problem that keeps plaguing her and on which so many of her premises run afoul.
                    Yep, some more of her usual special pleading.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                      Leaving out the 'according to you' (because it's not according to me it's according to actual historians, of which you are not). then Correct, anti-semitism existed
                      Again that is not exactly what I asked you.

                      I asked if "according to you anti-Semitism as we now understand that term, was to be found within societies throughout the Graeco-Roman world?" Emphasised for clarity

                      You have repeated your allegation and also stated that your opinion is likewise held by "actual historians"

                      Who are these historians?

                      I would like some quotes from them where they provide evidence from across the Graeco-Roman world that anti-Semitism, as we now understand that term, was to be found within those societies and that those societies subjected Jews to institutionalised state and religious persecution and ostracism and that the institutionalised persecution and ostracism was premised solely on the fact that they were Jews. As was the case in Christian societies.

                      You have yet to produce any evidence in support of your contention. All you have done is insist that your opinion is correct and beyond dispute.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        Again that is not exactly what I asked you.

                        I asked if "according to you anti-Semitism as we now understand that term, was to be found within societies throughout the Graeco-Roman world?" Emphasised for clarity

                        You have repeated your allegation and also stated that your opinion is likewise held by "actual historians"

                        Who are these historians?

                        I would like some quotes from them where they provide evidence from across the Graeco-Roman world that anti-Semitism, as we now understand that term, was to be found within those societies and that those societies subjected Jews to institutionalised state and religious persecution and ostracism and that the institutionalised persecution and ostracism was premised solely on the fact that they were Jews. As was the case in Christian societies.

                        You have yet to produce any evidence in support of your contention. All you have done is insist that your opinion is correct and beyond dispute.
                        SO you got an answer and..... now do not want the answer? Is what you are saying here?

                        I answered your question. If you're this braindead that you cannot grasp the answer, I don't see what else I can do for you.

                        I'm also unsure why you think there needs to be 'institutionalized' anti-semitism for something to be anti-semitism. But as usual you're a libtard who thinks 'institutionalized' is some magic word. No such thing is required for anti-semitism to exist. To insist on that is to spit on every case of anti-semitism that doesn't meet your magical criteria.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                          SO you got an answer and..... now do not want the answer? Is what you are saying here?

                          I answered your question.
                          No you didn't.

                          You tell me that your views are supported by "actual historians" so produce those historians with the evidence I have just requested.
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                            And such racism isn't "enshrined" in the societal mores of the USA either. We can tell people that, and our problems will be over!
                            Not any more, and so your point is?
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              No you didn't.
                              Yes, I did.


                              You tell me that your views are supported by "actual historians" so produce those historians with the evidence I have just requested.
                              No thank you.
                              Last edited by Gondwanaland; 12-07-2021, 05:32 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                                No thank you.
                                If "actual historians" support your opinion, why are you so coy about naming them and citing their viewpoints?

                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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