"I think we should throw those books in a fire"

[Cow Poke]

Learn to read your prof and it's an easy A.

Yup, and I always aced those essay tests, cause all you had to do was write a bunch of nonsense. The Prof thought it was genius.

[Esther]

First of all, you declared that objective morality doesn't exist. That premise can only lead to one conclusion: Anything goes. As you yourself have said, if morality is subjective, then who can say what is good and proper? It's in the eye of the beholder, right?

Second, I don't much care what other groups who wave the Christian flag might advocate, because I have no obligation to defend their beliefs. I only need defend mine.

Finally, you claim that it is up to each person to decide for himself what he reads. Are you suggesting, then, that children should be given unrestricted access to sexually explicit material, leaving it up to them whether or not to read it?

Being mostly a reader on this forum and not a responder, I do not wish to constantly limit myself to cheerleading, but I have really enjoyed reading this thread and in particular MM's responses to HA's! (I am sure not even very deep down she has too! )

[Esther]

Fair enough. Let it be understood that you kicked someone out because they requested you make a good faith effort at answering a question before they went down your flowery path.

Of course if the mods Sparko or rogue06 deem this request to essentially be frivilous, I'll be back.

lol

[Esther]

what are "the laws"? What does that refer to? Try phrasing it a sensible manner. Are you asking me if societies have created laws against murder?
[/lquote]

The heavens declare the glory of God and the skies proclaim His handiwork.

Yeah yeah, and every amazing bowl of pasta declares and proves the might and power of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. [/QUOTE]

Grrr thought you were cleverer than this Gondwanaland!

Do you have to teach a child to lie? No. (Just the opposite, right)?
Does the child know it is doing something wrong when it tells a lie? Yes.

All people have a conscience. (Granted some have "seared" theirs by ignoring that "inner voice" one too many times).
Con meaning with.
Science meaning knowledge.
So all people sin (err) with knowledge. Where does this knowledge of what is morally right and wrong come from? It is God speaking to them and a conscience only has to do with morals what is wrong and what is right.
This is how I understand objective morality. We all know what is morally right and wrong without it being taught to us by any human being.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You miss the point that the antagonism was mutual.

If a province rises up in revolt, to describe that as antagonism seems something of an understatement.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

and?

it doesn't need to be "wndemic" to exist you brainless wonder.
I didn't make sweeping statements. I stated that anti-semitism existed and was acted on. Any historian worth their degree knows this.

and now you move on to braindead strawman arguments. Get a life girl.



I repeat again: antisemitism existed and was acted on toward Jews in harmful ways long before Christianity existed. Your attempts to insist otherwise only further show your claimed credentials are a load of hogwash.

So, according to you anti-Semitism as we now understand that term, was to be found within societies throughout the Graeco-Roman world?

Have I understood you correctly?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

That hardly addresses the issue of Jews being subjected to racist treatment long before Christianity existed, a matter which has satisfactorily been confirmed. Racism is what it is, and extends from times as far back as records go. It is not a recent development, nor a uniquely European conduct, nor yet a uniquely Christian conduct.

The Jews were not subject to racist treatment by Rome before Christianity and they had special status in Egypt under the Ptolemies which may been the cause of, or added to, Egyptian hostility.

The Temple in Jerusalem was permitted to make offerings on behalf of the Emperor - to avoid any idolatry. The Roman forces would bring aniconic standards into the city to avoid upsetting Jewish sensibilities. Pilate went against this and the ensuing protest by the Jews resulted in him removing those standards. You can read about that in both Josephus' Jewish War and his Jewish Antiquities.

The following extract is from Chapter 21 "Conclusion" from E Mary Smallwood's work The Jews Under Roman Rule: From Pompey to Diocletian. Brill, Leiden, 1976

Throughout the history of Rome's dealings with the Jews runs the thread of the toleration and protection of Judaism as a religion. In handling a racial and religious minority which would countenance neither compromise in the practice of their cult nor assimilation into their gentile environment, Rome was faced with the alternatives of suppression and toleration; and the latter carried with it the corollary of positive measures to protect the sect from molestation by gentiles, whether gentile residents in Palestine or the gentile communities with which Diaspora settlements were liable to be at odds. Judaism as a cult fulfilled the Roman criteria for permitted survival: it was morally unobjectionable and, at least among the Diaspora with whom alone Rome had direct and continuous dealings as subjects when formulating her Jewish policy in the first century BCE , politically innocuous.


Rome therefore made the sensible and generous choice of a policy of toleration, and pursued it with almost complete consistency during the period of the pagan empire, despite the vicissitudes of her political relations with the Jews both in Palestine and elsewhere. One of the
earliest episodes recorded of Rome's relations with the Diaspora concerns the exemption from the ban on the export of precious metals from the empire granted in favour of the Jewish Temple tax, a concession followed shortly by the exemption of the Jews from Roman military service. The charter of Jewish religious liberty formulated by Julius Caesar and confirmed, with extensions, by Augustus, gave Judaism the status of a religio licita throughout the empire, a status which it was to retain basically unaltered for three centuries, except during the last few years of Hadrian's reign.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Congratulations! You've proved that Racism doesn't exist in the United States. After all, if it existed there's no way a mixed heritage black man could rise to become the president of the USA.

You have misread what I wrote [again].

I never wrote that racism did not exist in the Roman world, I illustrated that it was not enshrined in societal mores to prevent certain races or peoples from achieving status or position.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

In short, he attempted to stamp out Judaism.

This was a political move against groups in Jerusalem. There were Jews living elsewhere at the time.

[CivilDiscourse]

You have misread what I wrote [again].

I never wrote that racism did not exist in the Roman world, I illustrated that it was not enshrined in societal mores to prevent certain races or peoples from achieving status or position.

And such racism isn't "enshrined" in the societal mores of the USA either. We can tell people that, and our problems will be over!

[rogue06]

Being mostly a reader on this forum and not a responder, I do not wish to constantly limit myself to cheerleading, but I have really enjoyed reading this thread and in particular MM's responses to HA's! (I am sure not even very deep down she has too! )

Are you trying to make Gondwanaland jealous?

[rogue06]

The Jews were not subject to racist treatment by Rome before Christianity and they had special status in Egypt under the Ptolemies which may been the cause of, or added to, Egyptian hostility.

Sources please.

FWIU, it was more of a mixed bag. In fact, from your favorite source:

a74954f0-fdeb-4c6d-828a-1e4a211de0b5.jpg

That opening paragraph is an eye-opener, wouldn't you say?

It has been argued that European antisemitism has its roots in Roman policy

Prepare for high winds as H_A begins her frantic and furious hand waving routine

[Gondwanaland]

Do you have to teach a child to lie? No. (Just the opposite, right)?

I think you underestimate how much children learn by observation.

Does the child know it is doing something wrong when it tells a lie? Yes.

When we teach them such, yes.

All people have a conscience. (Granted some have "seared" theirs by ignoring that "inner voice" one too many times).
Con meaning with.
Science meaning knowledge.
So all people sin (err) with knowledge. Where does this knowledge of what is morally right and wrong come from? It is God speaking to them and a conscience only has to do with morals what is wrong and what is right.
This is how I understand objective morality. We all know what is morally right and wrong without it being taught to us by any human being.

You posit that it is evidence of God speaking to them. But have no evidence that God exists.

[Gondwanaland]

So, according to you anti-Semitism as we now understand that term, was to be found within societies throughout the Graeco-Roman world?

Have I understood you correctly?

Anti-semitism existed and was acted on before Christianity existed. Why is this so hard to grasp?

Like? This isn't even controversial. It's not some sort of new information. Any historian worth their salt knows this.

But then I guess that's the problem. I'm talking to a person who claims to be a historian but is not. A person who thought that: 1. being born in the US makes it impossible for one to be Hellenistic, and 2. that using the term "Hellenistic Scholar" somehow means you are claiming the scholar is Hellenistic rather than the common use of the term to mean they are an expert in Hellenistic scholarship.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Indeed Feldman was born in Connecticut which is what you are seeking to use to hand wave him off as an expert.

That's really a new low for you.

And since you have been franticly Googling and trolling Wikipedia I guess it is okay to cite the latter concerning Feldman

Source: Louis Feldman

Louis Harry Feldman (October 29, 1926 – March 25, 2017) was an American professor of classics and literature. He was the Abraham Wouk Family Professor of Classics and Literature at Yeshiva University, the institution at which he taught since 1955.^[1]

Feldman was a scholar of Hellenistic civilization, specifically the works of Josephus Flavius. Feldman's work on Josephus is widely respected by other scholars.^[2][3]


Source

© Copyright Original Source

Hmm. "a scholar of Hellenistic civilization" Sounds like, in spite of being from Connecticut, that he might have a bit more command of the subject than a German hausfrau with delusions of being a professional historian.

Moreover, yet again, here you are engaging in your typical games. You make no attempt to refute the fact that anti-Semitism can be traced for several centuries before the advent of Christianity -- and that shreds your fantasy that anti-Semitism is something the Christians came up with. Instead you dismiss an expert on the topic based upon the fact that he

was not Hellenistic by the way but was born in Connecticut

What's real interesting is that you acknowledge anti-Semitism occurring long before Christianity first arose when you wrote

the traditional view that Antiochus's invasion of Jerusalem was prompted by his own anti-Semitic sentiments has been called into question

but have chosen to disregard the evidence of pre-Christian anti-Semitism so that you could push your claim that anti-Semitism originated with Christianity.

That's being incredibly intentionally dishonest.

Of course, there is the chance that you just ran across that bit during your Googling in which case you're just an ignorant poser.

My comment was simply in response to your [again] rather poor syntax.

Antiochus has been accused of being "anti-Semitic". However, was he? If he was indeed anti-Semitic as we understand the term he would have crushed the Jewish faith from the moment he came to power. He didn't and the existence of the Hellenising group within Judaism illustrates that point. They were not abandoning their religion, they merely adopted some aspects of the Greek lifestyle. As is usually the case it was the more fundamentalist groups that took against such behaviour.

You might also find the following of interest, it comes from Peter Schäfer’s introduction in his Judeophobia: Attitudes towards the Jews in the Ancient World, HUP, 1997

The same is true for the persecution under Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the Maccabean revolt [167 BCE] . Hardly anyone would seriously argue any longer that the Antiochan persecution was triggered by anti-Semitic feelings on the part of the king or was anti-Semitic in character. Antiochus was idealized by his own and, even more so, by his successors' propaganda as the vanguard of Greek culture who "endeavoured to abolish Jewish superstition and to introduce Greek civilization,"and accordingly was demonized by contemporary Jewish literature as the personification of evil and religious hubris, but one has to distinguish carefully between his attitude and later interpretation. [My emphasis]


Despite allegations by yourself and Gondwanaland, anti-Semitism [as we now understand that term] did not exist in the Graeco-Roman world. Unlike in the Christian world anti-semitism was not institutionalised in the Graeco-Roman world and Jews were not persecuted or reviled by the authorities simply for being Jews.


In 2020 the ADL published a guide to explain the history of anti-Semitism and the various myths that have enabled it to endure for so many centuries. It listed the following anti-Semitic tropes:

• Jews have too much power.
• Jews are disloyal
• Jews are greedy
• Jews killed Jesus
• Jews use Christian blood for religious rituals
• The Holocaust didn’t happen
• Anti-Zionism or delegitmization of Israel

https://www.adl.org/news/press-relea...semitic-tropes

Tacitus offers less than flattering observations about the Jews in his Histories but we need to remember that those are his opinions and while those opinions may well have been shared by others of the Patrician class or wider Roman society those opinions were not enshrined in state policy and promulgated by the authorities.

However, all of the tropes provided by the ADL [with my earlier caveat on Tacitus' remarks] stem from the Christian [or post Christian] world.