"I think we should throw those books in a fire"

[rogue06]

Many a time I've tried to find a workable way to have censorship -

Never found one that didn't have the potential to become "cancel culture" within a month.

I'm not a pro censorship sort of person being libertarian in my politics, but that doesn't mean we should be making unquestionably hard core porn available to kids in their school library.

[tabibito]

So you really have a problem with banning pornography from school libraries?

Site censorship is a somewhat different matter. Refusing permission to decide what material should be stocked is itself a matter of imposing censorship and requiring endorsement of material that the library (or shop or ...) management disapproves (infringement of freedom of speech). Even so, it is still treading a thin line.

[rogue06]

If you really want to be concerned about censorship, consider this article from CNN. https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/29/media...ong/index.html

An episode of Simpsons that mentions Tiananmen Square is missing from Disney+ in Hong Kong. There are many other examples of corporate America censoring (and probably self-censoring that we don't know about) themselves for fear of offending the Chinese government. This kind of Chinese government control over our free speech should be a higher concern than it is.

And the joke responsible:

E3DS6unWUAUtJr8.jpg

An image that probably should be posted on Tik Tok. A lot.

Just sayin'

[tabibito]

And the joke responsible:

E3DS6unWUAUtJr8.jpg

An image that probably should be posted on Tik Tok. A lot.

Just sayin'

Interesting - it might just be that the people involved in producing the show know something contrary to the common narrative. "Tank Man" doesn't fit with the story of a massacre.

[rogue06]

Interesting - it might just be that the people involved in producing the show know something contrary to the common narrative. "Tank Man" doesn't fit with the story of a massacre.

IIRC, "Tank Man" was a day or two after the actual massacre.

[tabibito]

IIRC, "Tank Man" was a day or two after the actual massacre.

It still doesn't fit the narrative.

On the Day: Beijing. Inside Tiananmen Sq.

Tienenman Sq - in.jpg

On the Day: Beijing. Outside Tianenman Sq.

Tienenman Sq - out.jpg
According to the write-up, 300 - 400 people died that day, half of them soldiers. The deaths were not associated with events in the square, but were due to an unrelated concurrent protest. (warning: Some pictures in that article are not suitable for children.)

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The point seems to have gone over your head. You're objecting to book burning while hypocritically standing on a flimsy "anything goes" morality. I'm certainly not saying that your countrymen had the right idea, but then I'm standing on a rock solid moral foundation. You, on the other hand, have no grounds to call their actions into question because, as you say, "who is to say that your view is correct, and [theirs] is not?"

Firstly do not misrepresent what I have written. I have never stated "anything goes". Secondly, you seem unaware of the irony of your position.

You claim you are "standing on a rock solid moral foundation". So have many repressive regimes. They also believe[d] that theirs was the correct "moral foundation".

At present in the USA you have a Christian group that calls itself Christ Church and this group is attempting to impose its own ultra-conservative values on its local society, and indeed to the wider community.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...acy-us-america
Christ Church has a stated goal to “make Moscow a Christian town” and public records, interviews, and open source materials online show how its leadership has extended its power and activities in the town.

Church figures have browbeaten elected officials over Covid restrictions, built powerful institutions in parallel to secular government, harassed perceived opponents, and accumulated land and businesses in pursuit of a long-term goal of transforming America into a nation ruled according to its own, ultra-conservative moral precepts.

The rise of Christ Church may be playing out in a small Idaho city but it comes at a time when the US is roiled by the far right, including Christian nationalism, and when social conservatives are seeking to roll back basic tenets of US life such as legal abortion, as well as dominating powerful national institutions, such as the supreme court. [...]

In 2005, Wilson asked a judge for leniency in the case of Stephen Sitler, a former student at a Christ Church-aligned college, New Saint Andrews College (NSAC). Sitler was at that time convicted of sex offenses involving children.

After his release on probation in 2007, Sitler was married in Christ Church in 2010, by Wilson, to a woman who, by Sitler’s and her account, had been introduced to him by Edwin Iverson, then a Christ Church elder and now pastor of a Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches (CREC) church in Colville, Washington.

Wilson has faced scrutiny over other positions.

In the early 2000s, Wilson received criticism over a book, Southern Slavery as it Was, which he had co-written in the previous decade with J Steven Wilkins. Wilkins is a Louisiana pastor who was a co-founder of the neo-Confederate organization, the League of the South. His church is a member of Wilson’s congregational umbrella group, the CREC.

The book depicted slavery in the antebellum southern United States as “a relationship based upon mutual affection and confidence”, and argued that the enslaved enjoyed “a life of plenty, of simple pleasures, of food, clothes, and good medical care”.

and

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...oon-nature-doc
The Guardian has previously reported on how the church, which aims to create a theocracy in the US, has increased its power and influence in its home town, while also campaigning vociferously against efforts to curb the coronavirus pandemic. Those developments come amid a broader rise in the right wing across the US.

At the same time Christ church is seeking to use television and book publishing to enter US popular culture and promote its interests.

Wilson’s son Nathan Wilson and his manager and close associate, Aaron Rench, have simultaneously been attempting to crowdfund a creationist nature documentary starring Douglas Wilson’s brother, Gordon, and have continued to market young adult fiction through a mainstream publisher.

They have also entered into complicated financial arrangements which appear to divert money to a troubled charity associated with Christ Church and silently taken control of a number of Christ Church-associated businesses through LLCs which have limited legal and financial reporting obligations.

The revelations raise further questions about the way in which the church and its local empire of associated institutions are run, and the extent to which it has succeeded in embedding the church’s fundamentalist, theocratic teachings in the products of major media conglomerates.

Guardian investigations have shown how Christ Church has accumulated power, concentrated in the hands of Douglas Wilson’s family and a small number of other individuals.

Should we consider that group's morality to be both "objective" and "rock solid"? Do you want a religious theocracy in the USA with a morality that includes religious leaders pleading for leniency for child abusers?



To return to the OP link, the indignation from parents arose from "LGBTQIA” fiction in the library" and works like the book 33 Snowfish, which, according to its Wiki entry " has been criticized by conservative activists, along with other young adult fiction titles, for potentially exposing children to excessively violent and sexual themes".

The fact of the matter is that [a] people, including young adults, select the literature they wish to read; and [b] literature, like other Art forms, does not always deal with either the traditional or sanitised side of life.

Film is another medium which does the same thing.

I would also note that in the past the condemnation of certain films, books, music, art works by some groups has often led to that particular piece engendering more public interest than it might otherwise have done.

Hence the desire to ban can backfire on those doing the banning.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

How about this... instead of playing definition games, why don't you try noodling out which he meant and then asking if that's correct.

I did ask him. I even gave him three definitions of the word "opinion" from which to choose. Read the respective posts on page 2 of this thread.

[CivilDiscourse]

I did ask him. I even gave him three definitions of the word "opinion" from which to choose. Read the respective posts on page 2 of this thread.

No. You did not try to intuit it. That was not a good faith effort to figure out what was being said from context. Hence, why I did not play the game for you.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

In this case

What case?

it consists of things like a POV of a man looking down at another man kneeling in front of him while the latter performs oral sex on him. Absolutely nothing is left to the imagination. It is extremely explicit and graphic.

If the action is non-coercive I would not class that as pornography. It's graphic I agree, and it is not something that I would wish to watch or look at. However, there are art works that I do not find particularly appealing either. Gilbert and George's exhibition at the Jablonka Galerie in Cologne in 1994-5 was not an exhibition that appealed to me. Likewise the notorious work created by Andres Serrano in 1987.

However, that is the point. I have the choice.

Of course like any other industry, pornography works on supply and demand. Were the demand not there, the industry would not be so profitable nor so wide-spread.

[Mountain Man]

I have never stated "anything goes". Secondly, you seem unaware of the irony of your position.

You claim you are "standing on a rock solid moral foundation". So have many repressive regimes. They also believe[d] that theirs was the correct "moral foundation".

At present in the USA you have a Christian group that calls itself Christ Church and this group is attempting to impose its own ultra-conservative values on its local society, and indeed to the wider community.

First of all, you declared that objective morality doesn't exist. That premise can only lead to one conclusion: Anything goes. As you yourself have said, if morality is subjective, then who can say what is good and proper? It's in the eye of the beholder, right?

Second, I don't much care what other groups who wave the Christian flag might advocate, because I have no obligation to defend their beliefs. I only need defend mine.

Finally, you claim that it is up to each person to decide for himself what he reads. Are you suggesting, then, that children should be given unrestricted access to sexually explicit material, leaving it up to them whether or not to read it?

[rogue06]

I did ask him. I even gave him three definitions of the word "opinion" from which to choose. Read the respective posts on page 2 of this thread.

But you made absolutely no attempt to figure it out from the context. That was the key. With that you should be able to whittle down the possibilities and ask if the remaining one is correct.

Its pretty much how kids learned since the beginning and still used for good reason.

[rogue06]

It still doesn't fit the narrative.

On the Day: Beijing. Inside Tiananmen Sq.

Tienenman Sq - in.jpg

On the Day: Beijing. Outside Tianenman Sq.

Tienenman Sq - out.jpg
According to the write-up, 300 - 400 people died that day, half of them soldiers. The deaths were not associated with events in the square, but were due to an unrelated concurrent protest. (warning: Some pictures in that article are not suitable for children.)

I'm not sure what narrative you are driving at

[rogue06]

Firstly do not misrepresent what I have written. I have never stated "anything goes". Secondly, you seem unaware of the irony of your position.

You claim you are "standing on a rock solid moral foundation". So have many repressive regimes. They also believe[d] that theirs was the correct "moral foundation".

At present in the USA you have a Christian group that calls itself Christ Church and this group is attempting to impose its own ultra-conservative values on its local society, and indeed to the wider community.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...acy-us-america
Christ Church has a stated goal to “make Moscow a Christian town” and public records, interviews, and open source materials online show how its leadership has extended its power and activities in the town.

Church figures have browbeaten elected officials over Covid restrictions, built powerful institutions in parallel to secular government, harassed perceived opponents, and accumulated land and businesses in pursuit of a long-term goal of transforming America into a nation ruled according to its own, ultra-conservative moral precepts.

The rise of Christ Church may be playing out in a small Idaho city but it comes at a time when the US is roiled by the far right, including Christian nationalism, and when social conservatives are seeking to roll back basic tenets of US life such as legal abortion, as well as dominating powerful national institutions, such as the supreme court. [...]

In 2005, Wilson asked a judge for leniency in the case of Stephen Sitler, a former student at a Christ Church-aligned college, New Saint Andrews College (NSAC). Sitler was at that time convicted of sex offenses involving children.

After his release on probation in 2007, Sitler was married in Christ Church in 2010, by Wilson, to a woman who, by Sitler’s and her account, had been introduced to him by Edwin Iverson, then a Christ Church elder and now pastor of a Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches (CREC) church in Colville, Washington.

Wilson has faced scrutiny over other positions.

In the early 2000s, Wilson received criticism over a book, Southern Slavery as it Was, which he had co-written in the previous decade with J Steven Wilkins. Wilkins is a Louisiana pastor who was a co-founder of the neo-Confederate organization, the League of the South. His church is a member of Wilson’s congregational umbrella group, the CREC.

The book depicted slavery in the antebellum southern United States as “a relationship based upon mutual affection and confidence”, and argued that the enslaved enjoyed “a life of plenty, of simple pleasures, of food, clothes, and good medical care”.

and

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...oon-nature-doc
The Guardian has previously reported on how the church, which aims to create a theocracy in the US, has increased its power and influence in its home town, while also campaigning vociferously against efforts to curb the coronavirus pandemic. Those developments come amid a broader rise in the right wing across the US.

At the same time Christ church is seeking to use television and book publishing to enter US popular culture and promote its interests.

Wilson’s son Nathan Wilson and his manager and close associate, Aaron Rench, have simultaneously been attempting to crowdfund a creationist nature documentary starring Douglas Wilson’s brother, Gordon, and have continued to market young adult fiction through a mainstream publisher.

They have also entered into complicated financial arrangements which appear to divert money to a troubled charity associated with Christ Church and silently taken control of a number of Christ Church-associated businesses through LLCs which have limited legal and financial reporting obligations.

The revelations raise further questions about the way in which the church and its local empire of associated institutions are run, and the extent to which it has succeeded in embedding the church’s fundamentalist, theocratic teachings in the products of major media conglomerates.

Guardian investigations have shown how Christ Church has accumulated power, concentrated in the hands of Douglas Wilson’s family and a small number of other individuals.

Should we consider that group's morality to be both "objective" and "rock solid"? Do you want a religious theocracy in the USA with a morality that includes religious leaders pleading for leniency for child abusers?



To return to the OP link, the indignation from parents arose from "LGBTQIA” fiction in the library" and works like the book 33 Snowfish, which, according to its Wiki entry " has been criticized by conservative activists, along with other young adult fiction titles, for potentially exposing children to excessively violent and sexual themes".

The fact of the matter is that [a] people, including young adults, select the literature they wish to read; and [b] literature, like other Art forms, does not always deal with either the traditional or sanitised side of life.

Film is another medium which does the same thing.

I would also note that in the past the condemnation of certain films, books, music, art works by some groups has often led to that particular piece engendering more public interest than it might otherwise have done.

Hence the desire to ban can backfire on those doing the banning.

This was obviously the motive behind this thread. It doesn't take a mind reader to see that you want everyone to shake their heads in wonder at those backwards conservatives who want to burn books (and films, art...).

But as CD and I showed, this sort of behavior is hardly found only among conservatives.

CD showed that even some of those on the left realize that their fellow travelers have a penchant for this sort of behavior. No surprise given that the left is the party of censorship, speech codes, "hate speech" (anything they don't like) and the cancel culture.

And I provided some examples of leftwing librarians, school districts and university professors not only calling for the destruction of books they don't like but actually doing it. That Canuckistani school district destroyed 4700 books and turned it into a little ritual where the participants could feel holier than thou and morally superior for engaging in that sort of behavior.

[rogue06]

Finally, you claim that it is up to each person to decide for himself what he reads. Are you suggesting, then, that children should be given unrestricted access to sexually explicit material, leaving it up to them whether or not to read it?

Given some of her replies in the past...

So let's try another road...

Would H_A support adding books like this to school libraries and letting the kids decide for themselves

The_Anarchist_Cookbook_front_cover.jpg
Considered the "Bible" of manuals on making everything from illegal
drugs to explosives -- with much of the advise likely to get you killed



Or how about these?
C-9229.jpgdc0744846f88c1c92ac12644882f7402ac96d5db.jpg51LRtuUt1OL._AC_SY780_.jpgvxdzZ1jKdRV.jpg
Books on making lethal boobytraps, manufacturing poisons, making home-made bombs, and manufacturing methamphetamine