"I think we should throw those books in a fire"

[seer]

If you could prove your God exists, that he revealed such a law to man (I sure hope you're not referring to the jumble of contradictory nonsense in the Bible), and that he is moral himself, then we might be able to go down such a line of reasoning. But you, and every other theist, has failed to do so.

The very creation points to God, your moral sense points to God, your rational abilities points to God.

[Mountain Man]

I do have a moral foundation. I don't need some deity up in the sky to tell me how to be moral. I, like most everyone on the planet, am capable of empathy, understanding how actions can harm others, etc.. we don't need a book to tell us that. Honestly it's the people that insist that the only way to be moral is to follow the zbible that scare me because that implies that if they lose their faith in said book or deity, they will go on mass raping, stealing, and killing sprees.

Now, I Know reasonably they won't because despite their words, they too are just as capable of moral thought, with or without their religious faith. But the way y'all try to hype it up makes it sound previsely like i described.

And if you want to just copypasta, well: https://www.atheistalliance.org/abou...theists-moral/

Your link doesn't address Craig's argument, because at no point does he argue that atheists can't be moral. Craig's point is that once objective morality is removed from the equation, then nothing can actually be wrong, and things like empathy, and understanding how your actions can harm others are no longer virtues. You're simply doing what society has taught you to do, but what if you decided to rebel against societal norms and carve a new moral path of maximizing your own wealth and pleasure with no regard for others? If morality is subjective, as you insist, then how could that be wrong?

And I find it curious that you would sneer at the laws of God as recorded in the Bible but apparently have no problem with secular laws against murder or theft. If we follow your argument, we may as well strike all laws from the books, because surely we don't need the government telling us it's wrong to arbitrarily kill our neighbor.

[Gondwanaland]

But the murderous Maoists also used reason to implement social cohesion, and did it rather successfully. So reason itself does not tell us what is moral or not.

Given what I just said, reason is a non-starter.

Not particularly. That you don't understand how morals develop and think that your deity handed your morals to you, does not make morals developed through reason, biology, and empathy, invalid. Your ignorance does not mean anything.

[Gondwanaland]

Then if God revealed his law to man then that too would be a part of reality.

If you could prove your God exists, that he revealed such a law to man (I sure hope you're not referring to the jumble of contradictory nonsense in the Bible), and that he is moral himself, then we might be able to go down such a line of reasoning. But you, and every other theist, has failed to do so.

[seer]

the capability to reason, and understand empsthy, etc..

But the murderous Maoists also used reason to implement social cohesion, and did it rather successfully. So reason itself does not tell us what is moral or not.

Thus why reason is important.

Given what I just said, reason is a non-starter.

[seer]

When we invent laws they are part of reality in such that they are human constructs, yes.

Then if God revealed his law to man then that too would be a part of reality.

[Gondwanaland]

Whose reason?

the capability to reason, and understand empsthy, etc..

And biology? What does that mean? Our biology leads to some very cruel things.

Thus why reason is important.

[Gondwanaland]

In asking in what sense are they a part of reality. In other words - when we invent laws are they then a part of reality?

When we invent laws they are part of reality in such that they are human constructs, yes.

[seer]

Reason and biology.

Whose reason? And biology? What does that mean? Our biology leads to some very cruel things.

[seer]

what are "the laws"? What does that refer to? Try phrasing it a sensible manner. Are you asking me if societies have created laws against murder?

In asking in what sense are they a part of reality. In other words - when we invent laws are they then a part of reality?

[Gondwanaland]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Go back to what MM said.

If you really believe that then you have no grounds for moral objection, and yet as one of the more conservative posters on this forum who regularly condemns immoral behavior, your actions are not consistent with your stated beliefs.

In other words, what is your rational basis for objecting to any moral behavior? Your personal preference?

Reason and biology.

[Gondwanaland]

It is a simple and direct question: Do the laws against murder exist in reality?

what are "the laws"? What does that refer to? Try phrasing it a sensible manner. Are you asking me if societies have created laws against murder?
[/lquote]

The heavens declare the glory of God and the skies proclaim His handiwork.

[/QUOTE] Yeah yeah, and every amazing bowl of pasta declares and proves the might and power of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[seer]

There's nothing to answer. You want me to follow some straw you are arguing against.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Go back to what MM said.

If you really believe that then you have no grounds for moral objection, and yet as one of the more conservative posters on this forum who regularly condemns immoral behavior, your actions are not consistent with your stated beliefs.

In other words, what is your rational basis for objecting to any moral behavior? Your personal preference?

[seer]

You're going to have to ask a more clear question.

It is a simple and direct question: Do the laws against murder exist in reality?

Except reality does not show evidence of your fantasy.

The heavens declare the glory of God and the skies proclaim His handiwork.

[Gondwanaland]

Way to avoid an answer....

There's nothing to answer. You want me to follow some straw you are arguing against.