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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    If "actual historians" support your opinion, why are you so coy about naming them and citing their viewpoints?
    Because I'm not interested in jumping through hoops from someone who regularly makes double standards for herself, who pretends to be a historian but acts as if this is some surprising information, and who doesn't even know what a Hellenistic Scholar is. In addition you've been soundly spanked on this topic several times in the past by myself and others (including by others right on this thread), and refuse to learn or absorb any knowledge from that and continue to repeat the same nonsense brainlessly. That clear enough for ya?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

      Because I'm not interested in jumping through hoops from someone who regularly makes double standards for herself, who pretends to be a historian but acts as if this is some surprising information, and who doesn't even know what a Hellenistic Scholar is. That clear enough for ya?
      We both know why you are suddenly stalling.



      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        We both know why you are suddenly stalling.


        So it was clear enough for you or no? Do you need me to be more explicit in why I won't jump through the hoops of a braindead twit that doesn't know what a Hellenistic scholar is, who has already been soundly spanked by myself and others on this very topic, who has refused to take any of that and adjust her braindead argument instead of brainlessly repeating it?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          I would like some quotes from them where they provide evidence from across the Graeco-Roman world that anti-Semitism, as we now understand that term, was to be found within those societies and that those societies subjected Jews to institutionalised state and religious persecution and ostracism and that the institutionalised persecution and ostracism was premised solely on the fact that they were Jews. As was the case in Christian societies.
          Anti-Semitism as we now know the term did not exist in the primitive church either, which is all the evidence needed to show that anti-Semitism was not a Christian teaching. How those attitudes came to be imported into the church, or developed within the church, is another matter altogether.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            Anti-Semitism as we now know the term did not exist in the primitive church either, which is all the evidence needed to show that anti-Semitism was not a Christian teaching. How those attitudes came to be imported into the church, or developed within the church, is another matter altogether.
            The term "anti-Semitism" as we understand it today did not exist at all the Graeco-Roman world.

            The Graeco-Roman world contained racism, chauvinism, notions of racial superiority but no society [apart perhaps from ancient Sparta] practised deliberate racism towards one particular group premised solely on that group's cultural background. And no group was deemed racially inferior because of its religion.

            As to your comment on the "primitive church" unless you are employing an alternative definition that phrase is generally used when referencing the first three hundred years of fledgling Christianity and as Goodman notes "The impetus for Christians to distance themselves from Jews after 70 was much more clear-cut. By that date many, probably most, Christians lived outside Judaea, and most of them had not been born Jews.... But, more crucially in the development of antisemitism, to gain credibility in the Roman world after 70 Christians needed not only to deny their own Jewishness but to attack Judaism altogether."

            Hence from the early second century we see Christian anti-Judaism/anti-Semitism being promulgated by various ECFs in polemical treatises against the Jews. These writings promoted other slanders including idolatry and sexual vice [Justin Martyr and Irenaeus] with Chrysostom in the fourth century even accusing the Jews of cannibalism.

            Whether some here are willing to recognise it or not, the fact of the matter is that modern anti-Semitism with all its present associations has its roots in early Christianity. The accretion of later slanders from the nineteenth century that include avarice, the desire for world domination [including the wielding power behind the scenes via financial processes] and the Jews per se being viewed as an alien and dangerous race, all have their origins in those early Christian calumnies.

            The tropes of anti-Semitism as listed by the ADL can all be traced to Christian and post Christian societies. Not the Graeco-Roman world.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
              So it was clear enough for you or no? Do you need me to be more explicit in why I won't jump through the hoops of a braindead twit that doesn't know what a Hellenistic scholar is, who has already been soundly spanked by myself and others on this very topic, who has refused to take any of that and adjust her braindead argument instead of brainlessly repeating it?
              I am tempted to ask if those "actual historians" you have mentioned are Snarks!
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • Hence from the early second century we see Christian anti-Judaism/anti-Semitism being promulgated by various ECFs in polemical treatises against the Jews. These writings promoted other slanders including idolatry and sexual vice [Justin Martyr and Irenaeus]
                Whether Justin Martyr developed the anti Jewish libels or imported them from his earlier life as a pagan is unknown. He did not receive them from pre-existing Christian teachings (always assuming that Justin Martyr actually did write such comments). Irenaeus - I don't recall anything in his writing that matches the claim. Perhaps a more precise reference would help.


                with Chrysostom in the fourth century even accusing the Jews of cannibalism.
                I may be wrong in not thinking of the fourth century church as included in the primitive church. That will need some checking.

                And of course - the clergy of the early church did not agree with the congregations about the proper attitudes that should prevail between Christian and Jew.

                https://www.worldhistory.org/article...-from-judaism/

                Beyond the views of their leaders, Jews and Christians apparently continued the ancient practice of ethnic cults mixing with each other. The Council of Elvira in Spain (312 CE) condemned Christians for having Rabbis bless their fields. In an Easter sermon in 386 CE, Bishop John Chrysostom in Antioch railed against his Christians for attending the synagogue on Saturday and then coming to church on Sunday. These writings can also be understood as an attempt to stop such mixing. The unfortunate dark side of this period was the continuing application of the Church Fathers’ views that contributed to Christian antisemitism through Late Antiquity, the Middle Ages, and beyond.


                So note - the church as a whole did not have any conflict with the Jew at the close of the fourth century. Those attitudes would seem to have been imposed by Rome as she acquired greater control over other congregations.

                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Whether Justin Martyr developed the anti Jewish libels or imported them from his earlier life as a pagan is unknown. He did not receive them from pre-existing Christian teachings (always assuming that Justin Martyr actually did write such comments). Irenaeus - I don't recall anything in his writing that matches the claim. Perhaps a more precise reference would help.




                  I may be wrong in not thinking of the fourth century church as included in the primitive church. That will need some checking.

                  And of course - the clergy of the early church did not agree with the congregations about the proper attitudes that should prevail between Christian and Jew.

                  https://www.worldhistory.org/article...-from-judaism/

                  Beyond the views of their leaders, Jews and Christians apparently continued the ancient practice of ethnic cults mixing with each other. The Council of Elvira in Spain (312 CE) condemned Christians for having Rabbis bless their fields. In an Easter sermon in 386 CE, Bishop John Chrysostom in Antioch railed against his Christians for attending the synagogue on Saturday and then coming to church on Sunday. These writings can also be understood as an attempt to stop such mixing. The unfortunate dark side of this period was the continuing application of the Church Fathers’ views that contributed to Christian antisemitism through Late Antiquity, the Middle Ages, and beyond.


                  So note - the church as a whole did not have any conflict with the Jew at the close of the fourth century. Those attitudes would seem to have been imposed by Rome as she acquired greater control over other congregations.
                  You have to keep in mind. Hypatia is anti-christian. So, she has interest in pawning off the evils of the world onto a group she's prejudiced against.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                    You have to keep in mind. Hypatia is anti-christian. So, she has interest in pawning off the evils of the world onto a group she's prejudiced against.
                    Yes - but it is impolite to mention the problem.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • I think we should burn all the books!!! The future is e-books!!



                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        Yes - but it is impolite to mention the problem.
                        Personally, letting her spew without acknowledging her bigotry is rude to everyone else.

                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        My own views on religion not withstanding, this is true humanity.


                        Sister Ann Rose Nu Tawng said she would continue to stand up for “the children”.

                        “I can’t stand and watch without doing anything, seeing what’s happening in front of my eyes while all Myanmar is grieving,” she said.
                        Last edited by CivilDiscourse; 12-08-2021, 08:26 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          The Graeco-Roman world did not institutionalise enmity towards the Jews. The Christian world did.
                          You are no different than someone mewling that there is a difference between being shot and killed with a .38 Special, 9mm, and .357 magnum bullet.

                          Why when Christians adopted pagan anti-Semitism did it suddenly become a uniquely Christian enterprise but when Nazis adopted anti-Semitism it magically resisted becoming a Nazi enterprise?

                          You can't have it both ways.



                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                            Leaving out the 'according to you' (because it's not according to me it's according to actual historians, of which you are not). then Correct, anti-semitism existed and was acted on before Christianity existed, including in the Graeco-Roman world.
                            Even when we can trace it back at least as far as the 3rd cent. B.C. she keeps pretending that Christians concocted anti-Semitism all by themselves. It just magically appeared overnight in the middle of the 1st cent. A.D.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                              Yep, some more of her usual special pleading.
                              It's her blatant hypocrisy.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                Whether Justin Martyr developed the anti Jewish libels or imported them from his earlier life as a pagan is unknown.
                                This reads as special pleading

                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                He did not receive them from pre-existing Christian teachings
                                You cannot know that. Certainly there is anti-Judaism found in the gospel of John and in Acts The writer of John has Jesus distanced from his own people 8.17 and 15.2. That work also has Jesus accusing the Jews of being children of the devil [8.44]. Likewise in Acts it is always "the Jews" who are out for Paul's blood and generally causing trouble for the disciples/apostles.

                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                Irenaeus - I don't recall anything in his writing that matches the claim. Perhaps a more precise reference would help.
                                Irenaeus tries to argue that Paul and Moses share common ideas he makes reference to apparent Jewish idolatry in the Hebrew texts and suggests that "true" Jews worship the same god as he does. [Heresies 4.15]. Finally warning in that chapter "that those who do not obey Him should be righteously judged (condemned) because they have not obeyed Him; and that those who have obeyed and believed on Him should be honoured with immortality."

                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                I may be wrong in not thinking of the fourth century church as included in the primitive church.
                                Hence my comment that Chrysostom came later.

                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                And of course - the clergy of the early church did not agree with the congregations about the proper attitudes that should prevail between Christian and Jew
                                https://www.worldhistory.org/article...-from-judaism/

                                Beyond the views of their leaders, Jews and Christians apparently continued the ancient practice of ethnic cults mixing with each other. The Council of Elvira in Spain (312 CE) condemned Christians for having Rabbis bless their fields. In an Easter sermon in 386 CE, Bishop John Chrysostom in Antioch railed against his Christians for attending the synagogue on Saturday and then coming to church on Sunday. These writings can also be understood as an attempt to stop such mixing. The unfortunate dark side of this period was the continuing application of the Church Fathers’ views that contributed to Christian antisemitism through Late Antiquity, the Middle Ages, and beyond.
                                We have no way of knowing if those two selected examples represent a behaviour and attitude that was extended across all Christian communities.

                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                So note - the church as a whole did not have any conflict with the Jew at the close of the fourth century.
                                Then you would need to explain the writings of some of the ECFs.

                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                Those attitudes would seem to have been imposed by Rome as she acquired greater control over other congregations.
                                Once again you seem very desirous to remove all taint of any hostility and anti-Judaism from early Christianity and place it squarely on Rome [although what you understand by the word in that context is entirely unknown]. You seem to consider that the persecution of the Jews by Christianity from the fourth century onwards may be traced back to an entirely separate [but unspecified] source.


                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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