Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
Because I'm not interested in jumping through hoops from someone who regularly makes double standards for herself, who pretends to be a historian but acts as if this is some surprising information, and who doesn't even know what a Hellenistic Scholar is. That clear enough for ya?
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostWe both know why you are suddenly stalling.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostI would like some quotes from them where they provide evidence from across the Graeco-Roman world that anti-Semitism, as we now understand that term, was to be found within those societies and that those societies subjected Jews to institutionalised state and religious persecution and ostracism and that the institutionalised persecution and ostracism was premised solely on the fact that they were Jews. As was the case in Christian societies.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Anti-Semitism as we now know the term did not exist in the primitive church either, which is all the evidence needed to show that anti-Semitism was not a Christian teaching. How those attitudes came to be imported into the church, or developed within the church, is another matter altogether.
The Graeco-Roman world contained racism, chauvinism, notions of racial superiority but no society [apart perhaps from ancient Sparta] practised deliberate racism towards one particular group premised solely on that group's cultural background. And no group was deemed racially inferior because of its religion.
As to your comment on the "primitive church" unless you are employing an alternative definition that phrase is generally used when referencing the first three hundred years of fledgling Christianity and as Goodman notes "The impetus for Christians to distance themselves from Jews after 70 was much more clear-cut. By that date many, probably most, Christians lived outside Judaea, and most of them had not been born Jews.... But, more crucially in the development of antisemitism, to gain credibility in the Roman world after 70 Christians needed not only to deny their own Jewishness but to attack Judaism altogether."
Hence from the early second century we see Christian anti-Judaism/anti-Semitism being promulgated by various ECFs in polemical treatises against the Jews. These writings promoted other slanders including idolatry and sexual vice [Justin Martyr and Irenaeus] with Chrysostom in the fourth century even accusing the Jews of cannibalism.
Whether some here are willing to recognise it or not, the fact of the matter is that modern anti-Semitism with all its present associations has its roots in early Christianity. The accretion of later slanders from the nineteenth century that include avarice, the desire for world domination [including the wielding power behind the scenes via financial processes] and the Jews per se being viewed as an alien and dangerous race, all have their origins in those early Christian calumnies.
The tropes of anti-Semitism as listed by the ADL can all be traced to Christian and post Christian societies. Not the Graeco-Roman world."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View PostSo it was clear enough for you or no? Do you need me to be more explicit in why I won't jump through the hoops of a braindead twit that doesn't know what a Hellenistic scholar is, who has already been soundly spanked by myself and others on this very topic, who has refused to take any of that and adjust her braindead argument instead of brainlessly repeating it?"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Hence from the early second century we see Christian anti-Judaism/anti-Semitism being promulgated by various ECFs in polemical treatises against the Jews. These writings promoted other slanders including idolatry and sexual vice [Justin Martyr and Irenaeus]
with Chrysostom in the fourth century even accusing the Jews of cannibalism.
And of course - the clergy of the early church did not agree with the congregations about the proper attitudes that should prevail between Christian and Jew.
https://www.worldhistory.org/article...-from-judaism/
Beyond the views of their leaders, Jews and Christians apparently continued the ancient practice of ethnic cults mixing with each other. The Council of Elvira in Spain (312 CE) condemned Christians for having Rabbis bless their fields. In an Easter sermon in 386 CE, Bishop John Chrysostom in Antioch railed against his Christians for attending the synagogue on Saturday and then coming to church on Sunday. These writings can also be understood as an attempt to stop such mixing. The unfortunate dark side of this period was the continuing application of the Church Fathers’ views that contributed to Christian antisemitism through Late Antiquity, the Middle Ages, and beyond.
So note - the church as a whole did not have any conflict with the Jew at the close of the fourth century. Those attitudes would seem to have been imposed by Rome as she acquired greater control over other congregations.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Whether Justin Martyr developed the anti Jewish libels or imported them from his earlier life as a pagan is unknown. He did not receive them from pre-existing Christian teachings (always assuming that Justin Martyr actually did write such comments). Irenaeus - I don't recall anything in his writing that matches the claim. Perhaps a more precise reference would help.
I may be wrong in not thinking of the fourth century church as included in the primitive church. That will need some checking.
And of course - the clergy of the early church did not agree with the congregations about the proper attitudes that should prevail between Christian and Jew.
https://www.worldhistory.org/article...-from-judaism/
Beyond the views of their leaders, Jews and Christians apparently continued the ancient practice of ethnic cults mixing with each other. The Council of Elvira in Spain (312 CE) condemned Christians for having Rabbis bless their fields. In an Easter sermon in 386 CE, Bishop John Chrysostom in Antioch railed against his Christians for attending the synagogue on Saturday and then coming to church on Sunday. These writings can also be understood as an attempt to stop such mixing. The unfortunate dark side of this period was the continuing application of the Church Fathers’ views that contributed to Christian antisemitism through Late Antiquity, the Middle Ages, and beyond.
So note - the church as a whole did not have any conflict with the Jew at the close of the fourth century. Those attitudes would seem to have been imposed by Rome as she acquired greater control over other congregations.
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Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
You have to keep in mind. Hypatia is anti-christian. So, she has interest in pawning off the evils of the world onto a group she's prejudiced against.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Yes - but it is impolite to mention the problem.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostMy own views on religion not withstanding, this is true humanity.
Sister Ann Rose Nu Tawng said she would continue to stand up for “the children”.
“I can’t stand and watch without doing anything, seeing what’s happening in front of my eyes while all Myanmar is grieving,” she said.Last edited by CivilDiscourse; 12-08-2021, 08:26 AM.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe Graeco-Roman world did not institutionalise enmity towards the Jews. The Christian world did.
Why when Christians adopted pagan anti-Semitism did it suddenly become a uniquely Christian enterprise but when Nazis adopted anti-Semitism it magically resisted becoming a Nazi enterprise?
You can't have it both ways.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
- 1 like
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
Leaving out the 'according to you' (because it's not according to me it's according to actual historians, of which you are not). then Correct, anti-semitism existed and was acted on before Christianity existed, including in the Graeco-Roman world.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
Yep, some more of her usual special pleading.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
- 1 like
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Whether Justin Martyr developed the anti Jewish libels or imported them from his earlier life as a pagan is unknown.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostHe did not receive them from pre-existing Christian teachings
Originally posted by tabibito View PostIrenaeus - I don't recall anything in his writing that matches the claim. Perhaps a more precise reference would help.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostI may be wrong in not thinking of the fourth century church as included in the primitive church.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostAnd of course - the clergy of the early church did not agree with the congregations about the proper attitudes that should prevail between Christian and Jewhttps://www.worldhistory.org/article...-from-judaism/
Beyond the views of their leaders, Jews and Christians apparently continued the ancient practice of ethnic cults mixing with each other. The Council of Elvira in Spain (312 CE) condemned Christians for having Rabbis bless their fields. In an Easter sermon in 386 CE, Bishop John Chrysostom in Antioch railed against his Christians for attending the synagogue on Saturday and then coming to church on Sunday. These writings can also be understood as an attempt to stop such mixing. The unfortunate dark side of this period was the continuing application of the Church Fathers’ views that contributed to Christian antisemitism through Late Antiquity, the Middle Ages, and beyond.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostSo note - the church as a whole did not have any conflict with the Jew at the close of the fourth century.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostThose attitudes would seem to have been imposed by Rome as she acquired greater control over other congregations.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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