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"I think we should throw those books in a fire"

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  • Gondwanaland
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Even when we can trace it back at least as far as the 3rd cent. B.C. she keeps pretending that Christians concocted anti-Semitism all by themselves. It just magically appeared overnight in the middle of the 1st cent. A.D.
    Honestly if anyone believes she's an actual historian at this point, I've got some prime real estate in my swamp to sell them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gondwanaland
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    I am tempted to ask if those "actual historians" you have mentioned are Snarks!
    *Yawn*

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

    9781984805706.jpg
    Nobody nowhere nohow owns a rogue

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

    Nobody nowhere nohow owns a rogue
    Most people won't even own to knowing a rogue.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    https://journals.openedition.org/bcrfj/5968

    4th Century BC - Hecataeus - Hecataeus’ excursus (apud Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica 40.3)

    1. When in ancient times a pestilence arose in Egypt, the common people ascribed their troubles to the workings of a divine agency; for indeed with many strangers of all sorts dwelling in their midst and practising different rites of religion and sacrifice, their own traditional observances in honour of the gods had fallen into disuse. 2. Hence the natives of the land surmised that unless they removed the foreigners, their troubles would never be resolved. At once, therefore, the aliens were driven from the country, and the most outstanding and active among them banded together and, as some say, were cast ashore in Greece and certain other regions; their leaders were notable men, chief among them being Danaus and Cadmus. But the greater number were driven into what is now called Judaea, which is not far distant from Egypt and was at that time utterly uninhabited. 3. The colony was headed by a man called Moses, outstanding both for his wisdom and for his courage. On taking possession of the land he founded, beside other cities, one that is now the most renowned of all, called Jerusalem. In addition he established the temple that they hold in chief veneration, instituted their forms of worship and ritual, drew up their laws and ordered their political institutions. He also divided them into twelve tribes, since this is regarded as the most perfect number and corresponds to the number of months that make up a year. 4. But he had no images whatsoever of the gods made for them, being of the opinion that God is not in human form; rather the Heaven that surrounds the earth is alone divine, and rules the universe. The sacrifices that he established differ from those of other nations, as does their way of living, for as a result of their own expulsion from Egypt he introduced a kind of misanthropic and inhospitable way of life (ajpavnqrwpovn tina kai; misovxenon bivon) (…).”6

    The Jews are actually the only people or nation ever accused of being misanthropic (misanthr˘pos, apanthr˘pos) and inhospitable (misoxenos) in the whole corpus of Greek literature.

    Although their attitude was considered strange and not very nice, in the eyes of a fourth/third century Greek writer like Hecataeus it was not yet as reprehensible as it happened to be at the end of the 2nd century BCE, when, in a completely different political context, Jewish separatism was understood as an expression of deep hatred against all non-Jews.


    What you fail to acknowledge Hypatia_Alexandria is that the Jews had acted against Christians, and had engaged in some vile accusations against Christians while Christians were still trying to maintain cordial relations with Judaism.

    Pointing out that present day anti-Semitism has its roots in early Christianity is not bigotry. That some Christians may find that unpleasant truth in the history of their religion hard to accept is another matter entirely.
    There has been no attempt to deny that the church has engaged in anti-Semitism: the claim that anti-Semitism originated with the church has been refuted. There is enough evidence to show that preexisting anti-Semitism was inherited by the church, and enough Jewish action against the church to provoke retaliation. The claim that anti-Semitism was endemic throughout the primitive churches has likewise been refuted. Your claim that present day anti-Semitism has its roots in early Christianity is probably true (in Europe and the English speaking world) ... but your initial claim did not address that issue. It was a claim that anti-Semitism itself originated with the church.

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  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Remind me what books we want to throw in a fire?
    9781984805706.jpg
    Nobody nowhere nohow owns a rogue

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  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Remind me what books we want to throw in a fire?

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Pointing out that present day anti-Semitism has its roots in early Christianity is not bigotry.
    Continuing to ignore the fact that anti-Semitism was around centuries before Christianity because it upsets your anti-Christian rant is, OTOH, most definitely bigotry.

    Continuing to try to minimize the centuries of pagan anti-Semitism because it upsets your anti-Christian diatribe is, OTOH, most definitely bigotry.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    I believe that I did complain about her bigotry in the past, and the claim that the church as a whole somehow was anti-Semitic has been addressed. She has the options of acknowledging the fact that it was not a feature of the church as a whole, or making the fact of her bigotry even more clear than it already is.
    Pointing out that present day anti-Semitism has its roots in early Christianity is not bigotry. That some Christians may find that unpleasant truth in the history of their religion hard to accept is another matter entirely.

    I also wonder if much of this defensive behaviour protesting against the Christian origins of modern anti-Semitism is a form of guilt resulting from the horror of the Holocaust which was an atrocity whose origins can be traced back to writings found in early Christian texts.

    It should be remembered that the concept of annihilating the Jews is something that has been present for some considerable time in Christianity and various millenarian movements that arose from time to time were focused on the concept of “the Antichrist”. This doctrine received its earliest expression in the church Fathers, Irenaeus, Hippolytus and Lactantius, and was based chiefly on the exegesis of II Thessalonians 2: 3-12. This [although possibly a later interpolation] was widely interpreted to mean that at the end of days a Jewish Antichrist would arise and be regarded by the Jews as the Messiah. He would lead a powerful Jewish army against the forces of Christianity headed by Christ himself. It was also believed that the result of this conflict would result in the total destruction of the Jews by the divinely led Christian forces.

    It might therefore be argued that the existence of such ideas within Christianity from such an early period
    made possible [even to the point of tacitly sanctioning] the Nazi's attempted genocide.

    A
    s has been previously noted the present day anti-Semitic tropes listed by the ADL are all from Christian or post Christian societies.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    A symptom of hate.
    - she seems to think that being anti-jew is hatred but being anti-Christian isn't. Another double standard.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

    You have to keep in mind. Hypatia is anti-christian. So, she has interest in pawning off the evils of the world onto a group she's prejudiced against.
    A symptom of hate.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

    Personally, letting her spew without acknowledging her bigotry is rude to everyone else.
    I believe that I did complain about her bigotry in the past, and the claim that the church as a whole somehow was anti-Semitic has been addressed. She has the options of acknowledging the fact that it was not a feature of the church as a whole, or making the fact of her bigotry even more clear than it already is.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    No you didn't.

    You tell me that your views are supported by "actual historians" so produce those historians with the evidence I have just requested.
    https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...51#post1331451

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Whether Justin Martyr developed the anti Jewish libels or imported them from his earlier life as a pagan is unknown.
    This reads as special pleading

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    He did not receive them from pre-existing Christian teachings
    You cannot know that. Certainly there is anti-Judaism found in the gospel of John and in Acts The writer of John has Jesus distanced from his own people 8.17 and 15.2. That work also has Jesus accusing the Jews of being children of the devil [8.44]. Likewise in Acts it is always "the Jews" who are out for Paul's blood and generally causing trouble for the disciples/apostles.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Irenaeus - I don't recall anything in his writing that matches the claim. Perhaps a more precise reference would help.
    Irenaeus tries to argue that Paul and Moses share common ideas he makes reference to apparent Jewish idolatry in the Hebrew texts and suggests that "true" Jews worship the same god as he does. [Heresies 4.15]. Finally warning in that chapter "that those who do not obey Him should be righteously judged (condemned) because they have not obeyed Him; and that those who have obeyed and believed on Him should be honoured with immortality."

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    I may be wrong in not thinking of the fourth century church as included in the primitive church.
    Hence my comment that Chrysostom came later.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    And of course - the clergy of the early church did not agree with the congregations about the proper attitudes that should prevail between Christian and Jew
    https://www.worldhistory.org/article...-from-judaism/

    Beyond the views of their leaders, Jews and Christians apparently continued the ancient practice of ethnic cults mixing with each other. The Council of Elvira in Spain (312 CE) condemned Christians for having Rabbis bless their fields. In an Easter sermon in 386 CE, Bishop John Chrysostom in Antioch railed against his Christians for attending the synagogue on Saturday and then coming to church on Sunday. These writings can also be understood as an attempt to stop such mixing. The unfortunate dark side of this period was the continuing application of the Church Fathers’ views that contributed to Christian antisemitism through Late Antiquity, the Middle Ages, and beyond.
    We have no way of knowing if those two selected examples represent a behaviour and attitude that was extended across all Christian communities.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    So note - the church as a whole did not have any conflict with the Jew at the close of the fourth century.
    Then you would need to explain the writings of some of the ECFs.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Those attitudes would seem to have been imposed by Rome as she acquired greater control over other congregations.
    Once again you seem very desirous to remove all taint of any hostility and anti-Judaism from early Christianity and place it squarely on Rome [although what you understand by the word in that context is entirely unknown]. You seem to consider that the persecution of the Jews by Christianity from the fourth century onwards may be traced back to an entirely separate [but unspecified] source.


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  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

    Yep, some more of her usual special pleading.
    It's her blatant hypocrisy.

    Leave a comment:

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