Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

The second amendment

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16

    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    ....Professors of history do not deal in codswallop....


    Many "Professors of History" are such because they majored in History, and that's about all you can do with that degree.
    All it proves is that they sat in the right seats for the right number of hours and got a piece of paper stating so.

    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post

      I see that Professor Anderson was in discussion also with the excellent Amy Gooodman back in June. Professors of history do not deal in codswallop. They are experts in exactly this sort of thing, and I would encourage you to take them seriously. When they teach, they get their students to look at the original documents. We might need to do the same here.

      From Goodman’s show transcript:
      Sorry, they need to quote the Founders directly rather than reading their own bias into the debate about the Second Amendment.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #18
        https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciar...ngly-as-racist

        Slavery was a matter discussed both at the Declaration of Independence and during the Constitutional debates. However, the suggestion that it was a primary motivation for the Second Amendment is utter nonsense.

        States opposed to slavery, like Vermont, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, New York and Rhode Island, had precursor state constitutional provisions recognizing the right to bear arms. In his famous 1770 defense of Capt. Thomas Preston in the Boston Massacre trial, John Adams declared that British soldiers had a right to defend themselves since “here every private person is authorized to arm himself.” His second cousin and co-Founding Father, Samuel Adams, was vehemently anti-slavery and equally supportive of the right to bear arms.

        Guns were viewed as essential in much of America, which was then a frontier nation, needed for food — but also to protect a free people from tyranny and other threats. (The Minutemen at Concord, after all, were not running to a Klan meeting in 1775.) Law enforcement was relatively scarce at the time, even in the more populous states — but, of course, some writers today claim the first police departments were products of slavery, too, used to enforce that system and to recapture escaped slaves.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post




          Many "Professors of History" are such because they majored in History, and that's about all you can do with that degree.
          All it proves is that they sat in the right seats for the right number of hours and got a piece of paper stating so.
          My kid has a history degree and knows first hand how worthless it is.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post

            ...deft scholarship convincingly places the right to use force at the center of American citizenship, and warns that the Second Amendment, as it is currently exercised, guarantees that Black Americans will never be equal.
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            How does that follow? What is the logic?

            It doesn't. And that's the point.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by seer View Post

              Where are the actual quotes from the Founders? Not that the slave thing couldn't have been one of many considerations...

              Historian Falsely Claims The Second Amendment Was Created To Protect Slavery

              https://thefederalist.com/2021/06/03...otect-slavery/

              https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/the-...o-with-slavery
              If the motivation for the 2A was a fear of slave revolts then we should find argumentation to that effect by the Founding Fathers. And not just a little.

              So, where is it?

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                If the motivation for the 2A was a fear of slave revolts then we should find argumentation to that effect by the Founding Fathers. And not just a little.

                So, where is it?
                Right, we need to see actual quotes. And I'm not saying that the slave thing wasn't an issue - but to couch it as a driving force is without merit.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post

                  I see that Professor Anderson was in discussion also with the excellent Amy Gooodman back in June. Professors of history do not deal in codswallop. They are experts in exactly this sort of thing, and I would encourage you to take them seriously. When they teach, they get their students to look at the original documents. We might need to do the same here.


                  "Professors of history do not deal in codswallop"? You might want to tell that to the aforementioned Michael Bellesiles, the now former history professor

                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

                  [...]

                  Another much celebrated case of fraudulent research was published in an award-winning book (recipient of Columbia University's prestigious Bancroft Prize in American History and Diplomacy for instance) that was the most heralded anti-gun book in a decade, Michael Bellesiles' Arming America: The Origins of the National Gun Culture stands exposed as an utter hoax. Bellesiles was an Emory professor and director of the Center for the Study of Violence and his book caused a sensation with Second Amendment opponents with its claim that gun ownership in the U.S. was "an invented tradition," but ended with its author being charged with perpetrating what the New York Times called "one of the worst academic scandals in years."

                  The media went nuts over the release of the book the Chicago Tribune called it an "exciting new book that absolutely devastates the myth of the gun in early America." The New York Times said "the evidence is overwhelming" and the Los Angeles Times hailed the book as a "great achievement," while the Philadelphia Inquirer gushed that it was "the most critically praised book of America history in many years." The Journal of American History called the book's research "meticulous and thorough," and wrote that Bellesiles had "attacked the central myth behind the National Rifle Association's interpretation of the Second Amendment". It declared Bellesiles' evidence was so formidable that "if the subject were open to rational argument", the debate would be over.

                  IOW, Bellesiles' book had reassured the liberal establishment that their belief that what they had believed about guns, what they had hoped to be true, was correct: that the Second Amendment protects only the collective right to bear arms, that individual gun rights were deemed unimportant at the time of the writing and ramification of the U.S. Constitution.

                  But then things started going wrong. Seriously wrong. It turned out that Bellesiles' alleged research was based on distorted interpretations of historical records and often cited evidence that appears to have been completely fabricated. Scholars who examined his data couldn't substantiate his claims that the 11,000-plus probate records from 40 counties in Colonial America showed fewer than 7% actually owned working guns. Academics trying to corroborate Arming America's sensational findings were stunned by "an astonishing number of serious errors," and found his estimates to be way off at best. Further, Bellesiles assured would-be replicators of his research that for all but a few of the 40 counties he examined, he did his probate research via microfilm at the Federal Archives in East Point, Georgia. The problem is that the archives in East Point have no such records.

                  Even worse, Bellesiles repeatedly claimed that he had managed to obtain detailed probate records from 1849 through 1859 from the San Francisco Superior Court. The problem is that all the probate data from that decade had been destroyed in the great earthquake of 1906. Bellesiles couldn't have examined them because that information was destroyed decades before he was even born! When confronted with this inconvenient fact, Bellesiles suddenly recollected that it was from one of the other two Bay area libraries that he got the records from. But as the New York Times reported, "[The San Francisco records] were not available in two other Bay area libraries either."

                  Bellesiles then claimed that it was actually at the Contra Costa County Historical Society that he found them. Unfortunately for him, the Contra Costa facility not only said that it didn't have any such records, but also said that it had gone back through all its logs and didn't even have a record of Bellesiles having ever visited its collection until recently -- long after Bellesiles published his book.

                  In the end Bellesiles' awards were rescinded, his publisher did not renew his contract, the National Endowment for the Humanities withdrew its name from a fellowship that the Newberry Library had granted him and Bellesiles resigned his position at Emory. The author of the piece in the Journal of American History that had so enthusiastically praised Bellesiles wrote "It is entirely clear to me that he's made up a lot of these records. He's betrayed us. He's betrayed the cause. It's 100 percent clear that the guy is a liar and a disgrace to my profession. He's breached that trust."


                  Now what were you saying about "professors of history do not deal in codswallop"?

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Right, we need to see actual quotes. And I'm not saying that the slave thing wasn't an issue - but to couch it as a driving force is without merit.
                    I think that at best it is a case of co-option or cooptation -- taking over or appropriation of something for a new or different purpose.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciar...ngly-as-racist

                      Slavery was a matter discussed both at the Declaration of Independence and during the Constitutional debates. However, the suggestion that it was a primary motivation for the Second Amendment is utter nonsense.

                      States opposed to slavery, like Vermont, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, New York and Rhode Island, had precursor state constitutional provisions recognizing the right to bear arms. In his famous 1770 defense of Capt. Thomas Preston in the Boston Massacre trial, John Adams declared that British soldiers had a right to defend themselves since “here every private person is authorized to arm himself.” His second cousin and co-Founding Father, Samuel Adams, was vehemently anti-slavery and equally supportive of the right to bear arms.

                      Guns were viewed as essential in much of America, which was then a frontier nation, needed for food — but also to protect a free people from tyranny and other threats. (The Minutemen at Concord, after all, were not running to a Klan meeting in 1775.) Law enforcement was relatively scarce at the time, even in the more populous states — but, of course, some writers today claim the first police departments were products of slavery, too, used to enforce that system and to recapture escaped slaves.
                      Naught kitty. You're trying to confuse ff with the facts.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                        My kid has a history degree and knows first hand how worthless it is.
                        Maybe your kid could get a job as a professor and say truly worthless things but be honored because of the professorship!
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                          Maybe your kid could get a job as a professor and say truly worthless things but be honored because of the professorship!
                          She hates teaching people.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                            She hates teaching people.
                            I had a professor like that once.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                              My kid has a history degree and knows first hand how worthless it is.
                              As I have repeatedly told my son, "Don't enter a career field that nobody will miss if it disappeared tomorrow."
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                If the motivation for the 2A was a fear of slave revolts then we should find argumentation to that effect by the Founding Fathers. And not just a little.

                                So, where is it?
                                Yep, in reality gun control is the result of fear of former slaves now being able to own and use guns. But as usual liberals accuse everyone else of what they do.
                                "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
                                - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Cow Poke, 12-01-2021, 10:53 PM
                                16 responses
                                109 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Cow Poke, 12-01-2021, 10:49 PM
                                13 responses
                                85 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by seer, 12-01-2021, 12:32 PM
                                8 responses
                                61 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by rogue06, 12-01-2021, 10:11 AM
                                33 responses
                                228 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 12-01-2021, 08:27 AM
                                30 responses
                                215 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Working...
                                X