Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Hypocrisy and prurience

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Likely, some if not many of those documents have been saved and are sitting in attics or even museum/library storage areas where they go unexamined due to lack of personnel. Every so often you hear about an interesting discovery made by some undergrad shifting through old records.
    The documents were hand written, averaging 2500 words/day, and they were bequeathed to her youngest daughter to be disposed of according to the daughter's saw fit. The daughter kept redacted records and destroyed most of what Victoria had written. In this case, no lying around in attics is plausible. https://www.artsy.net/v_and_a
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Likely, some if not many of those documents have been saved and are sitting in attics or even museum/library storage areas where they go unexamined due to lack of personnel. Every so often you hear about an interesting discovery made by some undergrad shifting through old records.
      An unlikely scenario insofar as the private papers of Queen Victoria are concerned.

      However, other documents do indeed come to light, often quite by chance.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        An unlikely scenario insofar as the private papers of Queen Victoria are concerned.

        However, other documents do indeed come to light, often quite by chance.
        The basic information can be found here
        Sadly Victoria’s journals were expurgated by her youngest daughter Princess Beatrice, who was the Queen’s literary executor and, in the words of Wilson, ‘one of the most appalling people in history’.

        The reason for this royal vandalism was voiced by the present Queen in the 1992 documentary Elizabeth R when she was seen showing her great-great-grandmother’s journal to the then Home Secretary, Kenneth Baker. ‘This is her diary, which was unfortunately re-written by Princess Beatrice. She thought her mother’s diaries were too frank and so she destroyed them.’

        Also excised from history are the 300 letters to Alexander Profeit, the estate manager or ‘factor’ at Balmoral, concerning her favourite servant John Brown – with whom it’s been suggested she had an affair. Described as ‘most compromising’ by Victoria’s doctor James Reid, they had to be bought from Profeit’s son George who was threatening to blackmail the Queen’s successor Edward VII in 1904. They were incinerated as soon as they were returned to royal hands.


        I'm have no idea why that appellation should have been ascribed to Beatrice - might be worth a dekko.
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          The basic information can be found here
          Sadly Victoria’s journals were expurgated by her youngest daughter Princess Beatrice, who was the Queen’s literary executor and, in the words of Wilson, ‘one of the most appalling people in history’.

          The reason for this royal vandalism was voiced by the present Queen in the 1992 documentary Elizabeth R when she was seen showing her great-great-grandmother’s journal to the then Home Secretary, Kenneth Baker. ‘This is her diary, which was unfortunately re-written by Princess Beatrice. She thought her mother’s diaries were too frank and so she destroyed them.’

          Also excised from history are the 300 letters to Alexander Profeit, the estate manager or ‘factor’ at Balmoral, concerning her favourite servant John Brown – with whom it’s been suggested she had an affair. Described as ‘most compromising’ by Victoria’s doctor James Reid, they had to be bought from Profeit’s son George who was threatening to blackmail the Queen’s successor Edward VII in 1904. They were incinerated as soon as they were returned to royal hands.


          I'm have no idea why that appellation should have been ascribed to Beatrice - might be worth a dekko.
          Unfortunately your link refused to open - however I note it was the Daily Mail site and I tend to take what that paper writes with a proverbial pinch of salt.

          This site reviews Wilson's book on Victoria https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...s-found-plenty

          And if you can get this Youtube video in your country you might find A N Wilson's documentary on her letter-writing interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO7yjvoyKag

          I did watch a series about Victoria's relationship with her children and that suggested she was not the best of mothers. The documentaries presented her as often being fixated on her own emotional suffering and rarely seeming to consider that her children might also be experiencing emotional problems or have issues. This particularly manifested itself in some of her letters to her eldest daughter, Victoria, mother of the future Wilhelm II. Vicky's difficult labour [which led to the permanent damaging of the baby's arm] was as nothing to what Victoria had suffered. Likewise she was sometimes less than sympathetic to Vicky when her husband Friedrich was dying of throat cancer, adversely comparing Vicky's grief to her own grief at the death of her beloved Albert. Her treatment of her son Leopold comes across as somewhat unhealthy. She refused him permission to go to university, constantly trying to infantilise him because of his haemophilia and although she did finally permit him to continue his studies, she has also given the young prince into the care of John Brown's brother, Archie, who was, at times, physically abusive towards the boy. When her other children spoke to her of this she dismissed their complaints as being nothing more than their dislike of the Brown family.

          One daughter, I think it was Louise, was quite radical, she became an artist and supported women's suffrage, but Beatrice was kept permanently at Victoria' side and again infantilised to some extent, and even after she married her mother insisted that she and her husband continued to live with her.

          It would appear that her lonely childhood and the death of her husband had a profound emotional impact on Victoria's personality and of course Dr Freud was not offering his services in the 1860s!
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria
            And if you can get this Youtube video in your country you might find A N Wilson's documentary on her letter-writing interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO7yjvoyKag
            An interesting documentary.
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              An interesting documentary.
              Yes it was. There is a second episode as well on her later life and John Brown. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkqKYmnTuNc&t=459s
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                An interesting documentary.
                An addendum

                Having just watched episode 2 I think I can understand why Wilson made that comment about Beatrice as an "appalling woman". In many respects she and the rest of Victoria's brood epitomise the title of this thread - hypocrisy and prurience.

                He points out at the end of the episode that it was her children who expunged so much of Victoria's real life and personality by the destruction of her correspondence concerning John Brown and Mohammed Abdul Karim [who was deported after she died] and the editing of her diaries. He also comments that the attempt to remove all trace of Brown by destroying such evidence [including images and statues of him] simply ignites further curiosity about the man and his friendship with Victoria.

                Destroying an archive of that magnitude is pure vandalism and Beatrice [and the rest of the family] are justly condemned by history.

                His comments on her burial request are fascinating. She was to be buried with [among other things] Albert's dressing gown, locks of hair from various [great] grandchildren and to be clasping a photograph of Brown. As Wilson notes it is strange to think when passing Frogmore that she is lying there with all that in her coffin.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  Could you cite these "pretty much every account"?

                  I suspect Victoria was not as prim as her public personal suggested. She and Albert had some quite "raunchy" artwork in their bedrooms. This is also the woman who on being told she should wait a while before embarking on another pregnancy is reported to have replied "What? No more fun in bed?" Or words to that effect.
                  It could very well be that Victoria may have played the role of being properly offended when she really wasn't.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I should note that David isn't the only work by Michelangelo that was censored. Right after his death, his "Last Judgment" which covers the entire altar wall of the Sistine Chapel, had the nude figures in it given strategically placed bits of draped cloth painted on them

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      It could very well be that Victoria may have played the role of being properly offended when she really wasn't.
                      The possibility cannot be denied. It is more likely that someone (possibly the curator of the museum) put words in her mouth.
                      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        It could very well be that Victoria may have played the role of being properly offended when she really wasn't.
                        I am still waiting for you to cite what you described as "pretty much every account"
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          The possibility cannot be denied. It is more likely that someone (possibly the curator of the museum) put words in her mouth.
                          Or that it is apocryphal.
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            I should note that David isn't the only work by Michelangelo that was censored. Right after his death, his "Last Judgment" which covers the entire altar wall of the Sistine Chapel, had the nude figures in it given strategically placed bits of draped cloth painted on them
                            You clearly missed my post #18. I have just noticed I omitted the "u" from could when I posted it.

                            Below is an NYT article on the recently discovered version of his Risen Christ:

                            WARNING BOTH LINKS CONTAIN IMAGE OF NUDE MALE FIGURE.
                            https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/a...en-christ.html sans loincloth.

                            And there is also the restored Expulsion from Eden by Masaccio, with the later modesty fig leaves removed.

                            https://image.slideserve.com/1214198...-of-eden-l.jpg

                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              I am still waiting for you to cite what you described as "pretty much every account"
                              Do you think that I care?

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                Or that it is apocryphal.
                                Agreed.

                                Rogue's "pretty much every account" can be accepted - I have not encountered any account that does not include the reference, though never without indications that the claim is an unsubstantiated rumour.
                                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Sparko, Yesterday, 04:10 PM
                                6 responses
                                65 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Sparko
                                by Sparko
                                 
                                Started by seer, Yesterday, 06:09 AM
                                19 responses
                                112 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post seanD
                                by seanD
                                 
                                Started by mossrose, 12-06-2021, 11:43 PM
                                50 responses
                                294 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post mossrose  
                                Started by seer, 12-06-2021, 03:27 PM
                                9 responses
                                87 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Cow Poke, 12-06-2021, 09:02 AM
                                1 response
                                18 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Thoughtful Monk  
                                Working...
                                X