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  • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

    did I say nobody mentioned numbers?
    I gave the numbers of victims from specific atrocities, 27 at Sandy Hook, 49 at the Pulse nightclub, 58 from Las Vegas, 3000+ from 9/11 and 300+ from My Lai.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

      Correct (thank you for tacitly admitting your earlier claim that we were saying 1 death of an innocent is not an atrocity, was a load of balogna)Whereas you are arguing that any atrocity is the same as any other atrocity. You are the only one here putting different values on human lives.
      You have stated that "Numbers. 1 murderbof an innocent life is an atrocity. 400 murders of innocent lives are an objectively worse and larger atrocity."[sic] Using what ethical criteria do you arrive at the conclusion that the deliberate, brutal, and wanton taking of 400 lives is "an objectively worse and larger atrocity" than the deliberate, wanton, and brutal taking of one innocent life?



      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

        Then you have been beating a strawman. No one has made the argument you claim they are making. That you are too dense to realize this is not surprising.

        Why did you dishonestly snip out the rest of my post?
        I quoted one sentence [with its main point] separately for emphasis.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

          Why are you unwilling to answer the question?
          Why are you? I asked this "what ethical argument are you putting forward to contend that the deliberate and wanton killing of one innocent is of less value or significance than the deliberate and wanton killing of 100 innocents?"

          You shifted the emphasis by altering the language and replied "Saying 10 murders is worse than one murder doesn't diminish the value of the one person's life. It recognizes that every life is valuable and the more lives taken the worse the tragedy." [My emphasis]

          I was not referring to tragedies which may include natural disasters or accidents, nor murders per se. The term murder has an emotional connotation and may also be the end result of multiple causes. Hence I have tried not to use that term on this thread, although, on occasion I have employed it.

          So let us stay with the original terms of atrocity/atrocities and the neutral term killing.

          I will therefore rephrase my original question.

          What criteria are you employing to make an ethical argument which contends that the atrocity of the deliberate and wanton killing of one innocent while "bad" is not as "bad" as the atrocity of the killing one hundred innocents? [N.B. Apart of course from the numbers].

          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            You do realize (because everyone else sure does) that you are the only one who is only concerned with numbers, right?
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            I certainly recognise that several of you are trying to rank atrocities according to the number of victims involved, arguing that 27 victims is a greater atrocity than 4 victims, 49 victims is a greater atrocity than 27 victims, 58 victims is a greater atrocity than 49 victims, 300 victims is a greater atrocity than 58 victims, 3000 victims is a greater atrocity than 300 victims, and so on. That is definitely a numbers game.
            What keeps flying well above that pointy head of yours is, as you've repeatedly been informed, is that there are other factors than just the sheer numbers are also involved.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              From Sparko, Gondwanaland, and rogue06.

              So although killing 1 person is an atrocity and so is killing a million, and the only difference is "the scale" - you can't ignore that scale. 1 million murders is worse than 1 murder.

              A smaller atrocity is still an atrocity. Just not as large as a large atrocity.

              Sheer numbers.
              My aren't you the dishonest troll.

              You have been repeatedly informed by multiple posters that it isn't merely the numbers (although that certainly is a factor).

              I've mentioned this at least three times now, only for you to either ignore it or literally remove it from my post when you respond.

              But at risk of being accused of over-simplifying we'll stick with just three: intent, organization, and scope.


              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                The horror of the Nazi regime is the mechanisation of mass murder and the horrifying mundanity of the entire thing. The railway workers who must have had some inkling of what those trains carried, staff at IG Farben that took the orders for Zyklon B, the designers of the crematoria, the SS who worked in the camps yet went home each evening to their families. That is the sheer unadulterated obscenity and nothing like that had ever been attempted in history - to turn mass murder into a production line.

                However, as people seem interested in numbers and while the Nazi atrocities took place over a comparatively short period of time, the totals for other countries over much longer periods of time may well exceed that of Hitler's Germany. Just look at the numbers that died during famines under British rule in India.
                You just can't help yourself can you? Always trying to excuse the Holocaust through Whataboutism.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  You just can't help yourself can you? Always trying to excuse the Holocaust through Whataboutism.
                  Given that this thread is about what constitutes an atrocity, how do you arrive at that conclusion?

                  I fully expect the individual famines in India [the last in Bengal in 1943] to be deemed by some here to be lesser atrocities because their estimated numbers on each occasion were lower than the estimated eleven million who perished under the Nazis.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    Given that this thread is about what constitutes an atrocity, how do you arrive at that conclusion?

                    I fully expect the individual famines in India [the last in Bengal in 1943] to be deemed by some here to be lesser atrocities because their estimated numbers on each occasion were lower than the estimated eleven million who perished under the Nazis.
                    It doesn't matter which thread it is. Any time the Holocaust gets brought up we can count on you sliding in on your hindquarters, immediately acting as an apologist and trying to minimize it through attempts of Whataboutism.

                    We probably could start a thread about the Holocaust and establish a betting pool on how long it'll be before you start.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      My aren't you the dishonest troll.

                      You have been repeatedly informed by multiple posters that it isn't merely the numbers (although that certainly is a factor).

                      I've mentioned this at least three times now, only for you to either ignore it or literally remove it from my post when you respond.

                      But at risk of being accused of over-simplifying we'll stick with just three: intent, organization, and scope.
                      And in reply to you I have cited the Holodomor and the Armenian genocide as examples of organisation, intent and scope. One might also include the Irish famines of the mid 1800s and the Indian famines of the late 18th and the 19th centuries.

                      I have also repeatedly requested various individuals to cite the criteria by which they consider an ethical argument can be made that the deliberate and wanton killing of one innocent is not so great an atrocity as the deliberate and wanton killing of one hundred innocents.


                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                        And in reply to you I have cited the Holodomor and the Armenian genocide as examples of organisation, intent and scope. One might also include the Irish famines of the mid 1800s and the Indian famines of the late 18th and the 19th centuries.

                        I have also repeatedly requested various individuals to cite the criteria by which they consider an ethical argument can be made that the deliberate and wanton killing of one innocent is not so great an atrocity as the deliberate and wanton killing of one hundred innocents.

                        Let's not forget Mao's Great Leap Forward (18 to 56 million killed) and Cultural Revolution (1.5 to 3 million killed[1]), Pol Pot's Killing Fields (2 to 2.5 million killed) and North Korean concentration camps (1 to 1.5 million killed) and terror starvation campaign from 1993 to 2008 (up to 1 million killed).

                        And for some reason, everyone forgets how Belgium's Leopold II decided that the Congo was his personal property and waged a genocidal campaign to rid the land of "trespassers." Estimates of those killed vary (upwards of around 10 million), but nearly everyone agrees that nearly half of the country's inhabitants were slaughtered.

                        All of which cause My Lai to pale in comparison.






                        1. post-Mao leaders acknowledged that 100 million people, one-ninth of the entire population, suffered in one way or another.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          You just can't help yourself can you? Always trying to excuse the Holocaust through Whataboutism.
                          That isn't what she is doing. Her posts are uniform in condemnation of the atrocities by the third Reich.
                          What she is doing is point out the obvious - those were not the only atrocities conducted, and there are others - conducted by other nations - that are just as bad.
                          The moral component of those atrocities is equal.

                          For my own -
                          There are associated factors that make the third Reich's action a stand out example of evil, the uniquely unambiguous and methodical approach only being an example, but the moral turpitude involved in the pogroms are not worse than that of Communist Russia or Communist China, America, Britain, Australia, North Korea and running through older histories, just about any nation that you could care to name.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Let's not forget Mao's Great Leap Forward (18 to 56 million killed) and Cultural Revolution (1.5 to 3 million killed[1]), Pol Pot's Killing Fields (2 to 2.5 million killed) and North Korean concentration camps (1 to 1.5 million killed) and terror starvation campaign from 1993 to 2008 (up to 1 million killed).

                            And for some reason, everyone forgets how Belgium's Leopold II decided that the Congo was his personal property and waged a genocidal campaign to rid the land of "trespassers." Estimates of those killed vary (upwards of around 10 million), but nearly everyone agrees that nearly half of the country's inhabitants were slaughtered.
                            And they are all atrocities.

                            I also note that you have likewise ignored my invitation to offer a cogent argument citing the criteria by which you consider an ethical argument can be made that the deliberate and wanton killing of one innocent is not so great an atrocity as the deliberate and wanton killing of one hundred or ten million innocents.

                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            All of which cause My Lai to pale in comparison.
                            Can an atrocity "pale in comparison"? And why you are using the excuse of the numbers involved to play down the atrocity at My Lai?





                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              That isn't what she is doing. Her posts are uniform in condemnation of the atrocities by the third Reich.
                              In this thread she's been careful to admit they were atrocities, but even then seeks to minimize it by arguing it was no worse than My Lai.

                              And absolutely nobody is arguing that there haven't been other atrocities, so I'll let you chase that red herring down the rabbit hole (ah the smell of mixed metaphors in the morning).





                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                You have stated that "Numbers. 1 murderbof an innocent life is an atrocity. 400 murders of innocent lives are an objectively worse and larger atrocity."[sic] Using what ethical criteria do you arrive at the conclusion that the deliberate, brutal, and wanton taking of 400 lives is "an objectively worse and larger atrocity" than the deliberate, wanton, and brutal taking of one innocent life?


                                Using the 'ethical criteria' that 1 deliberate, brutal, wanton taking of a life is bad, and thus 400 deliberate, brutal, wanton taking of lives (400 singlular lives) is 400 times as bad. This is basic arithmetic.

                                Given you are demanding that I provide you this 'ethical criteria', that implies that you believe that the 1 is the same as the 400. Therefore you believe those 400 lives are worth 1/400 of that 1 life, if you hold that the 400 is not an objectively worse and larger atrocity. That's pretty sick.

                                Comment

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